[Jon Wiggett]

If you were to design a course that didn't have any irrigation what effect would it have on your design decisions?

[Joe Hancock]

I might choose to move very little to no dirt in an effort to cut my losses after the bad business decision to go without irrigation.

Seriously, I think the only way to ponder this is to understand the course would have very few rounds played on it, and then you might imagine some architectural decisions with this criteria.

Joe

[Jon Wiggett]

Thanks for the reply Joe you must be a politician as you answer the question by not giving an answer to it 

so

what architectural decisions would you make?

[Bradley Anderson]

Jon,

The problem would be doing a grow in. Without irrigation you wouldn't be able to even produce a product to market.

However, once you get it grown in you could have a great golf course with minimum water.

The first thing you have to loose is golf carts. Dormant turf can survive walkers, but not golf carts in the midday sun.

The A series bentgrasses require very little water. That would be my choice for greens. For tees and fairways I am still not sold on the concept of fescues unless the environment is temperate and cool. I still think that bluegrass is the best grass for non-irrigated fairways. Bentgrass will provide a better playing surface under moderate-to- low irrigation than bluegrass can, but in a no-irrigation scenario you gotta go with bluegrass.

You would need to have some trees around the tees to provide a respite from the heat because an unirrigated golf course can get very hot in the summer.

I've always had a vision for building a really low low maintenance golf course. I can see pulling up a gravel road to a shack at the first tee, and changing into your golf shoes at your car. Seriously I can just visualize the whole experience. If I won the lottery I would build this kind of golf course and let people play it for 10 bucks. I would have lots of quirky randomly placed bunkers set below grade. In fact I would keep everything as close to grade as possible. And no one would complain about how simplistic it was because of how cheap it is to play. But then after they played it they would realize how great it is because it breaks all the rules.

Call me a dreamer.

[PThomas]

didn't Bill Love design a course out east where they only irrigate with captured rainwater?

[Joe Hancock]

Jon,

Certainly one of the features would be wide corridors to accommodate bouncing, rolling golf balls. The greens would have to be accessible by the run up shot, and the features should be shaped with the thought that high, peaky stuff is hardest to keep stuff alive on during droughts. Low lying bunkers that are relatively small in size but cut below natural grade would be my thought as well. I would keep the number of trees and location of trees at the forethought of my mind, both for agronomics and golfer comfort and safety.

Joe

[Mike Nuzzo]

Speaking from the south / warm grass climate:

I would choose a wet climate.
There was quite a bit of common bermuda grass on some fairways before we planted - Gulf Coast - avg 50 in / yr.
We had a lottttt of rain last year.

Bradley is correct that grow-in could be impossible.
Last summer would have worked, but not this summer.
It would take several years to grow in.

I really don't think you could not have irrigation for the greens with dwarf - and certainly not ultra dwarf.

I would want to design it like wolf point - but would be afraid it would take even longer to grow in with all the fairway acreage.

[Michael Dugger]

We have a course up here in Orygun that went without irrigation for a couple years.

Total dog track.  Nobody played it. 

[Bradley Anderson]

Michael,

Where the hell is Orygun ?

[Garland Bayley]

On the other hand, we have a course here in Oregon that only added irrigation not long ago, and was quite popular when it wasn't irrigated.

[Donnie Beck]

I am still saving all my pennies for exactly this type of project. I doubt you could build it with no irrigation but my plan is to build low maintenance course modeled after the irrigation system here at Fishers. Everyone will tell you golf's numbers are down but I am planning on banking my entire savings that there is an incredible market for good quality AFFORDABLE golf.  Golf's numbers are down because the average guy with a family has been priced out of game..My dream is WIDE rolling un-irrigated fairways with interesting angles into massive greens within greens. The greens will be easy to hit but impossible to score on unless you hit to the proper tier. Large tee's to accommodate different skilled golfers and to spread out wear.. Interesting natural waste bunkers that don't have to be raked daily. A quality practice facility ..My plan is to do this at a price that the average working class guy can afford to play twice a week.

[Rob Rigg]

There are a lot of interesting county courses in Ireland that have no irrigation, although Mother Nature does a pretty good job.

The one I played growing up, Cavan, gets swamped when the rain comes down for extended periods of time but holds up fairly well in the summer.

Since there are no sprinkler heads you only have a yardage marker at 150 meters which is always a fun conversion for the Yank or Canuck who are visiting.

The things that always stood out for me is how natural the course is. You look at the land and realize that the routing occurred with very little movement of dirt. It is a golf course on what was clearly a cow pasture. Some of the greens are built up with sand for drainage and the tees are fairly flat but that's about it.

[Tony Ristola]

Jon,

Zero irrigation, including greens?

If so you'd need a climate that would do the job.

Greens construction would be interesting. A thick sandy loam layer so when it poured the greens would drain. Subsoil would have to be cooperative in the effort. I was originally thinking sand underneath, but a layer of clay with drainage might be better, as the clay (better clay mixed with gravel for better drainage) could hold water and release it back to the roots during times of drought.

Greens would be designed to shed surface water quickly; lots of contour. The crowns would burn in the summer, but that would be part of the charm and strategy; virtually forcing ground game approaches. For survival purposes, greens would be slowish.

Fescue and colonial bent putting surfaces.

Always room for a bounced in approach, unless the green had lots of depth. I'd avoid small greens so there would always be a spot with decent grass to cut the hole.

No formal tees. Just mowing out fairway.

No irrigation allows for massive fairways.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon,

Zero irrigation, including greens?

Toni,

yes, zero irrigation.

Jon,

Certainly one of the features would be wide corridors to accommodate bouncing, rolling golf balls. The greens would have to be accessible by the run up shot, and the features should be shaped with the thought that high, peaky stuff is hardest to keep stuff alive on during droughts. Low lying bunkers that are relatively small in size but cut below natural grade would be my thought as well. I would keep the number of trees and location of trees at the forethought of my mind, both for agronomics and golfer comfort and safety.

Joe

I agree Joe, wide corridors and greens accessible by the run up shot.

Jon,

The problem would be doing a grow in. Without irrigation you wouldn't be able to even produce a product to market.

However, once you get it grown in you could have a great golf course with minimum water.

The first thing you have to loose is golf carts. Dormant turf can survive walkers, but not golf carts in the midday sun.

The A series bentgrasses require very little water. That would be my choice for greens. For tees and fairways I am still not sold on the concept of fescues unless the environment is temperate and cool. I still think that bluegrass is the best grass for non-irrigated fairways. Bentgrass will provide a better playing surface under moderate-to- low irrigation than bluegrass can, but in a no-irrigation scenario you gotta go with bluegrass.

You would need to have some trees around the tees to provide a respite from the heat because an unirrigated golf course can get very hot in the summer.

I've always had a vision for building a really low low maintenance golf course. I can see pulling up a gravel road to a shack at the first tee, and changing into your golf shoes at your car. Seriously I can just visualize the whole experience. If I won the lottery I would build this kind of golf course and let people play it for 10 bucks. I would have lots of quirky randomly placed bunkers set below grade. In fact I would keep everything as close to grade as possible. And no one would complain about how simplistic it was because of how cheap it is to play. But then after they played it they would realize how great it is because it breaks all the rules.

Call me a dreamer.

Bradley,

yes you would need to allow atleast 2 years for the growin but it is possible. Also using the existing turf if suitable for fairways. I would go with fescue if the environment allowed but would also look at other suitable grasses that already exist on site to mix in (assuming the climate is correct). Along these lines I would also want my tees and greens to be in areas of free air movement.

On the GCA side I would go for larger greens to spread the wear with big movements.

[Tony Ristola]

Quote
"The problem would be doing a grow in. Without irrigation you wouldn't be able to even produce a product to market."
END

I disagree.

I've seen a couple courses with fairways grown in without irrigation and were playable, actually excellent after a year. Seeded in the late summer; thick and tight by the next. I've got photos somewhere.  It depends on the climate-soils. There are a few places in this world where both are optimal for growing cool season grasses. Greens would be the big challenge, but believe with a water truck or farmers hauling tanks greens could be established sans irrigation in the same climate, and then left to their own devices afterward. They would have to be seeded just about this time, with the farmers and their tanks active during times of wind and sun.

I can't think of one area in the North America where it would work. The Pacific North West would be the closest, but their soils are usually crappy glacial till, the cost to get a good playing surface costly, summers can get pretty warm, and with all the cash spent you'd be nuts to not have irrigation.

[Jon Wiggett]

Bump!

[Bradley Anderson]

Tony,

I agree that fairways could be grown in without irrigation. But Bush ruined that possibility with all of the global warming that he has caused, and it just doesn't rain like it used to. So if you really want non-irrigated golf you need to vote for a change.

I'm just joking.

Actually I have seen some pretty good non-irrigated fairways in some of the argicultral communities of the midwest, and they were grown in without irrigation. But the greens and tees were irrigated. Without water on the tees you would have no way to regenerate the divots. I guess you could put down rubber mats?

[Jon Wiggett]

Bradley,

you might just build enough teeing area. This is one of the GCA consideration to look at. If you need say 300m/2 with irrigation maybe you need 1000m/2 without. Tony's suggestion of just placing the tees in the fairway would be an obvious way to go

[Jim_Kennedy]

I hope Donnie Beck hits the lottery.

[Jon Wiggett]

So having looked at all the replies up to now I would go with the following format.

Finding an area with the right climate is very important. Enough rainfall but not to much to stop play to often. Mild summers and either mild winters or very cold. This would seem to point to eastern Scotland, northern germany, scandinavia maybe alpine regions.

The soil would need to be free draining and the site already suitable for a course with the minimum of earth moving to preserve it. I think what Tony R says about maybe a draining clay base rather than overly sandy might also be good.

Construction would have to minimise the amount of earth movement. I would go with deep drainage if it were needed at atleast 1.5 meters. The site should be open and not have too many trees. Greens would need to be large (800m2-1000m2) and have good surface drainage. Tees also very large to allow for regeneration. I also like Tony's idea about placing the tees in the fairway which would mean have the fairways going all the way back to the tees and that the players might not have a flat stance for the tee which I find a really cool idea.

(Edit)

The fairways themselves would be quite large and maybe not to uniform i.e wandering through the land following the drier, higher ground and avoiding the wet spots. Bunkers would be a mixture of grass and sand bunkers.

In general the greens would be cut a little higher than with an irrigation system but the fairways maybe not so. Also there would be no need to alter cutting heights through the year.

[Bradley Anderson]

JOn,

With regard to tees.

As a kid I rememberplaying a park district course where the tees were actually a part of the fairway cut, and not placed on any kind of a formal fillpad.

I suppose that with today'sconsiderations for handicaps and the precise yardages of golf holes in general, that whole concept would be generally frowned upon, but for your purpose of providing a low low maintenance field of play, that would be the ideal method. It would allow you to distribute the wear over a very large area.

The concept of a level teeing ground however is important to keep in mind with par three holes, because you are asking the golfer to get home in one shot, and you are generally guarding the target more closely on the one shotter. So on par threes at least you would want to have level teeing ground.

[Jon Wiggett]

Brad,

you are right. There would certainly be players who would not like the tees being unlevel. But I think as many would find it quite novel. If the gound was right it might be possible to have pretty large, levelish tees without much modification. I don't see why you couldn't set the yardages even with this format as the tee is just as likely to be very wide as it is very long.

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