Thoughts on Chambers Bay

[Adam Clayman]

Andy, I'm not certain I can relate at all to your conclusion that shooting par and thinking it should've been harder, because you used less clubs. I'm in it for the shots, the more creative, the better. If I play well, creating and pulling off interesting shots, I think higher of the design, not less. If I play poor, but still have the opportunity to be creative, it's the designs fault. That's why one dimensional designs, were the shots have been predetermined are so loathsome to me.
The game is best played between the ears. How many times have you heard someone say they have gone out with one or two clubs and played better than they do with a full set? Why do you think that is?

[Andy Troeger]

Adam,
I've done the "few" clubs thing a few times, including at Warren GC by C & C. The thing with it at Ballyneal was that four clubs was enough that I could hit any shot required.

This is a good thing actually, and with a 3W, 7I, SW, and putter, should be the case just about anywhere.

That said, very little on the course struck much fear into me. The fairways are very generous, the greens are too generally, and as long as I kept it out of bunkers around the greens the shots, while fun, weren't ones that I considered high risk--I putt just about everything though. It didn't seem THAT hard to avoid the bunkers when the wind was down.

Again, I really enjoyed the course and the shots required. The 4-club experience was a blast. Being a GD panelist, I have to rate "resistance to scoring" and I don't think that is Ballyneal's best category. Playability, design variety, memorability are much higher. Chambers does very well in all those categories too, even if the backstops are used quite a bit.

[Mike_DeVries]

Thanks for the photos and discussion on the course.  I saw it in the pre-bid stage, when it was still a war zone with piles of material everywhere -- an impressive site but certainly had a lot of issues, both good and bad.  It's great to see a fun product come out of that and I look forward to getting out there and playing it!

Mike

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

The more you play the course the better it is. I fond the par 5's to be very average as a group the first 4 times I played and respected them more and more after 3 more rounds. The ninth is the only par 3 I am down on so to speak. lol. It is a so called cannot loser by current modern arch styles. Yet I find it the weakest hole on the course. This is a big time modern course which is equal to if not superior to its only real comparison Whistling Straits.

[Mike Hendren]

Tiger,

I see where LSU opens at Washington next year on the weekend following banking school.  Hopefully you'll arrive a few days early and we can tee it up. 

I share your enthusiasm for CB.

Mike

[Sean Leary]

John Kirk, Andy,
 If you two haven't already, could you possible debate the differences between CB and Ballyneal?
I know John's view and Andy has Ballyneal nowhere near his top 5.

Adam,

I have played both 5 plus times. In my mind, Chambers is 2 clicks below BN. I do prefer CB to Whistling Straits, however. The par 3's and par 5s at BN are significantly better, with maybe a slight edge on the par 4's to CB.

[John Mayhugh]

If I had ten rounds to play and they were to be divided between Chambers Bay, Whistling Straits, & Ballyneal, I would opt for 6 at Ballyneal, 3 at Chambers, & 1 (maybe none) at Whistling Straits.

[John Kirk]

I guess I would ask Andy is he bases his "resistance to scoring" score completely on his score that day.  I can see you shooting 36 on Ballyneal's front nine with four clubs.  It could be done.  It would be much harder to do on the back nine.

Ballyneal is medium difficult, in my opinion.  My lowest score out of 10-12 tries this year is 74 or 75.  The course does not have a rating/slope, but I would estimate the rating at about 73.0-73.5/130 from the back tees.

Chambers Bay is longer, and the par 5s in particular have very tough greenside shots, especially if you try to go for the green in two and come up short.  But the 3s and 4s have lots of slopes which save shots by feeding them back onto the green.

As Adam Clayman stated, I like Ballyneal better.  Way better.  Shall we review the bias thread here?

[Andy Troeger]

I guess I would ask Andy is he bases his "resistance to scoring" score completely on his score that day.  I can see you shooting 36 on Ballyneal's front nine with four clubs.  It could be done.  It would be much harder to do on the back nine.

Ballyneal is medium difficult, in my opinion.  My lowest score out of 10-12 tries this year is 74 or 75.  The course does not have a rating/slope, but I would estimate the rating at about 73.0-73.5/130 from the back tees.

John,
I try to rate RS best I can based on how a variety of players would play it in normal conditions (which at Ballyneal includes wind), and would tend to agree that from what I know of the CR/Slope process that your numbers seem reasonable. I played Seven Canyons in Sedona, AZ in a strong wind that was unusual for the area, and tried to do my best to imagine what a calmer day would allow for with the playing corridors. I normally don't even keep score the first time around (although I can often figure it out afterwards depending on the round). My point is simply that its not as difficult as most other top 100 courses, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Its similar to Shoreacres in that respect, both would be great courses to play regularly.

As I said before, I think Ballyneal's a top 100 course, so one can surmise that even the aesthetics and RS scores were pretty good. Just not as good as Chambers for me. I do wonder how well CB will stand up to the pros without wind as well; even its length will only do so much there.