[Matt_Ward]

Jud:

I don't see the original 18 as being especially noteworthy -- save for a few of th early holes. The original 18 has benefited enormously because of the OTHER courses. Frankly Jud, I believe Kidd did a far better overall job at Tetherow in the Bend area than with the original 18. The original 18 benefits immeasurably from its location next to the Pacific Ocean and how the other courses have kept the spotlight on the overall facility which the original course can hook on to.

I also see BT as being one of the lesser C&C courses -- not as high as others who do ratings see it. I like the opening few holes and the closing ones -- the middle is really a downer for me. BT is very good no doubt and I see it a good ways ahead of the original 18.

Terrry:

You say each of the courses at Bandon is "great." Are you elevating the original 18 and BT to near equal status as the other two. And, if not, then how high? Just curious to know how you differentiate them and what other courses -- on the public side -- would you see as being worthy competition for what Bandon provides.

Help me out w your take on BT -- you say the course is more comfortable in its Northwest skin -- do you see the middle holes as being equal or better than the early and closing ones? Thanks.

[Pete_Pittock]

Matt,
     I'd like your opinion on Bandon Dunes using this theory. Kidd was tasked to build the first course at a resort which had an original prospectus of nine holes a year for seven years. The resort is out-of-the way, difficult to reach, but the owner wanted it to become a
Destination. Keep in mind that at the opening the course was pristine and much more penal, and the vast majority of American golfers had not experienced links golf except for the Open telecast and just a few publications and books.
     Did Kidd deliver what Keiser wanted? In retrospect, I think most definitely. If Bandon Dunes had been less commercially successful would Pacific Dunes, Bandon Trails and Old Macdonald even have been built? It kept bringing repeat business and we have DMK to thank for what followed.
     Now I'll have to go and read further back in the thread.

[Dan Smoot]

Jud:

I think I've mentioned how I see a few of the holes at Pac Dunes -- especially the 12th and 15th as filler / transition holes.

Old Macdonald is much more complete -- the segways between the holes do not lessen -- they provide a clear differentiation and the routing at Bandon's newest layout is much more complex and carries all sorts of the wind dimension situation to another level.

Old Macdonald doesn't surrender as easily to the big tee shot as Pac does -- in my mind. No doubt it's a stellar design but I see Old Macdonald capturing all the key details in a range of ways.

Pac Dunes No. 15 is significantly better than a filler hole.  Love the bunkering and elevated green.  No. 12 doesn't usually pose too much difficulty if the 2cd shot is placed out to the right.  I haven't play Old Mac, so I can't comment on the comparison.  Certainly, looking forward to it around Thanksgiving.

[William_G]

Matt:

It is the weather's effect on the architecture at Bandon that makes it the best.

No matter how many times you play your favorite or least favorite there.

The weather makes it a different, transecendent, and unique experience every time.

Thanks

[Matt_Ward]

Pete:

A few responses to your last post.

I never opined the original 18 at Bandon is not a fine course -- it's just not THAT good in my mind. I believe a good number of people threw points at the course because of the close proximity of the Pac Ocean and that it provided the kind of ideal blend of fast turf conditions that many people on this site and likely elsewhere enjoy and favor.

Pete, keep this in mind, the people remotely interested in Bandon were the core type players -- not the once-a-year types who head to Palm Springs and Scottsdale or Myrtle Beach. The issue was whether there are ENOUGH core type players to sustain such a facility. Clearly, the answer is yes.

I just see the original 18 as being much less than others and that Kidd has done better elsewhere but still people cling to the original 18 as his best layout. The original 18 provided Kidd with a launch pad to do even better work at other locations in my mind. I really enjoy the opening stretch of holes there but the course doesn't sustain that momentum with the holes on the inner half and the 18th is really truly a bore compared to what a place of that type should provide.

It is because of the OTHER courses at the facility that the original 18 benefits from the brand connection.

[Matt_Ward]

No doubt Old Macdonald is a gem to play but I have to add the following -- hats off to Mike Keiser in differentiating his "brand" and making sure that the offerings at the facility are quite different in terms of their architects and what they attempt to do. Even if the original course pales in comparison to the others, as I believe it does, the concept in adding to the overall brand and never simply resting in place is what makes Bandon the utterly incredible place it is.

Any business that can add a new wrinkle without throwing out the underpinnings of what made the place special in the first place will certainly attract a core audience. The mystique has simply grown and grown.

Old Macdonald adds to the legacy of Bandon and I see the latest course as pushing the bar even higher than what's been done previously. Very few, likely no other facility in the world, can boast that the "next" course has taken the facility to such a unfathomable height.

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