[Greg Murphy]

Hard Par Easy Bogey. What the heck does this mean? Does it make sense? Or is it nonsense?

Would Firestone be an example? Long and with few angles or centre line hazards but trouble for those who stray from the chosen path?

If there is such a thing, is it desirable? Does it make for good or interesting golf?

Would a course comprised entirely of all so called "hard pars & easy bogeys" have a high or low slope rating?

[Mike Boehm]

I have never played Firestone, but based on what I've seen on TV, it seems like a good example.  I think Oakland Hills South is a good example as well (though the bogies are becoming less easy with time). 

I think of hard par/easy bogey as being longer-than-average, challenging around the greens.  I think such a course would not be full of OB, water/lateral hazards, or other areas that make lost balls or unplayable lies a strong possibility.  Basically, it takes a great shot to recover par after a loose shot, but the intelligent player should still be able to still scratch out a bogey and a single swing will not result in a disaster.

A true hard par/easy bogey would have a higher course rating and a relatively lower slope rating.

[wsmorrison]

18th at Carnoustie?  Not with the Open championship on the line, but for a single digit on a typical day.  

I can think of some holes that are Really Hard Birdie, Very Hard Par, Hard Bogey and Easy Double Bogey  

[Jed Peters]

Hard Par Easy Bogey. What the heck does this mean? Does it make sense? Or is it nonsense?

Would Firestone be an example? Long and with few angles or centre line hazards but trouble for those who stray from the chosen path?

If there is such a thing, is it desirable? Does it make for good or interesting golf?

Would a course comprised entirely of all so called "hard pars & easy bogeys" have a high or low slope rating?

Olympic Club Lake.

Saucon Valley Grace.

Makes courses hard. Kinda beats you up.

Not that desirable.

Low slope rating.

[Tom Lehman]

What a great topic.

Hard par/easy bogey:  I don't believe length has anything to do with it.  There has to be one really difficult shot, either a tee shot that is extremely demanding or an approach that leaves few options other than hitting a great iron.  Typically the conversation is about tough birdie, easy par.  this one is different. The normal dilemna is this: need to hit a great tee shot but miss it into the rough, no way to hit the green because of the angle and the green is one those great ones that just make it tough to recover if you are in the wrong spot.  Once you get out of position on the great holes, they become tough par, easy bogey

[Doug Wright]

Isn't this the Road Hole (unless you hit into the Road Bunker, where all bets are off)?

[Craig Sweet]

I think for many golfers a par 4 just over 400 yards with an elevated green fits that description...it takes a good long iron or hybrid/fairway wood to get close(or on the green) and then a decent chip shot and putt for a hard par....easy(ier) bogey.

[Cory Brown]

I think that Tom Lehman is closest to the mark on this one.  A. V. Macan was known for saying he liked to design courses that provided "hard fours and easy fives".  This meant that to make par it required two very good shots to hit the green plus two good putts.  If you missed the green it would require a very good short game to get up and down to save par.
On the flip side it also means that even if you get into to trouble off of the tee it should be relatively easy to recover and make bogey, and that huge numbers aren't lurking around every corner.
This is definitely an ideal that every golf course should strive for, however I believe it is very difficult to achieve.

[Greg Murphy]

Tom,

How about giving us an example (real or hypothetical) of a tough birdie/easy par. Is this the type of hole for you where length becomes more of an issue? Os is it something else again, e.g., the putting surface?

[David_Madison]

Pinehurst #2 is my favorite example of hard par/easy bogey, especially when the greens are fast and firm. No water or OB to speak of, wide playing corridors, and lots of room around the greens.

You hit a drive in play, just in the rough or maybe even the wrong side of the fairway but not on an optimal line, so now your angle in is a bit awkward with a side slope or false front coming into play. Hit your approach okay but just not good enough, and the ball catches the slope and runs 20' off the green. Hit a pretty decent chip, but the subtle, firm green takes the ball 6' - 10' from the cup. Hard par or tap-in bogey and on to the next hole.

A low handicap player can do that all day long out there and shoot a nifty 84, never hitting a truly bad shot. A mid-handicap player can and will often do about the same thing. They're just putting for pars from 25' - 40' all day, more often than not lagging up and 2-putting for bogey. Very low slope but potentially a high course rating, depending upon which tees you play.

[David Stewart]

Pinehurst #2 is my favorite example of hard par/easy bogey, especially when the greens are fast and firm. No water or OB to speak of, wide playing corridors, and lots of room around the greens.

You hit a drive in play, just in the rough or maybe even the wrong side of the fairway but not on an optimal line, so now your angle in is a bit awkward with a side slope or false front coming into play. Hit your approach okay but just not good enough, and the ball catches the slope and runs 20' off the green. Hit a pretty decent chip, but the subtle, firm green takes the ball 6' - 10' from the cup. Tap-in bogey and on to the next hole.

A 2-5 handicap player can do that all day long out there and shoot a nifty 84, never hitting a truly bad shot.

I like this setup and it definitely works for the topic.  Just by having very undulating greens, being out of position is going to leave a tough up and down or two putt, but relatively easy bogey.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Birkdale 6th (as played in the Open as a par 4)
Royal County Down 9th (as played as a par 4)
Royal Dornoch 14th
TOC Road Hole
Royal Troon 11th (as played in the Open as a par 4)
Royal Lytham 17th

At my pathetic level of golf I tend regard many par 3s as a possible 2 or 3 which more than likely turns into a 5, not a 4, if I miss the green because chipping is the worst part of my game (which is saying a lot!).

Are there any par 5s that you giants of the game would rate as Hard Par Easy Bogey, or are they all considered to be birdie chances?  

[Bill_McBride]

Isn't this the Road Hole (unless you hit into the Road Bunker, where all bets are off)?

Not if you hit your last two tee shots into the hotel grounds like somebody I know. 

I did make a great 6 last time there after one of those errant tee shots on my second drive.

I really don't think the Road Hole is an easy bogey -- unless you're still thinking of it as a par 5! 

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