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Pat Brockwell

$2m, 5000 heads, mostly valve in head, every size nozzle made used, impacts mixed with rotors on the same hole, no two spacings the same, 60 MILES of pipe, more than that for wire (I drew the as-builts, this is all true), and operated by a bright guy with no prior experience and a favorable pay rate.  It took three years to realize that two side by side controllers were mixed up with each other because the programming was so convoluted.

On the other hand, 1000 heads, block system with some individual head control on greens, decoder system, one communication wire on the mainline, isolation valve for each tap, big mainlines, Rainbird 700 series and 301 series using the same case and swing joint.

I am preparing to put in another 18 in the future, I'd love to learn from other's mistakes and successes.   

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat,

Great topic.  Off hand, I would say the irrigation goes over the top when I as architect only have money left to build about 16 holes.....

I recall working on a design for one super (thankfully extreme and not typical) who kept having us upsize the pipe so he could water everything faster.  At one point, he wanted to add pipe size so he could water more quickly in the event that rain shortened his water window!  (think about that one for a bit)

My big beef is irrigation systems designed to water everything fully everywhere every night, "just in case."  Some systems want that watered in six hours or less, so maintenance can occur before any golfer gets on the course.

I think a lot of cost could be avoided if those involved simply told the owner that in extreme condtions, there might be some browning in perimeter areas.

 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Chris_Clouser

True story

I recently was at a course here in Indiana and was lucky enough to actually talk to the owner as I went around the course.  The architect they hired to do the original routing of the course brought in someone to do the irrigation system. 

When they saw the irrigation plan the contractor suggested, the owner told him to cut it down to half the cost.  The contractor said that they would not be able to get coverage on all the rough around the course.

The owner's response, "Nobody aims at the rough."

Kyle Harris

Just remember that these things break over time, and in order to fix - digging is required.

Nothing like severing hydraulic or electric lines that lay taught right next to the mainline. Give the future irrigation tech some room to work, PLEASE.

Ray Richard

   On another thread I discussed the irrigation designer who insisted on installing one extra head along each lateral. The problem was the extra heads were 50 feet into the tree line. Heads were installed next to the crown of 30 foot pines. Most of the spray was directed at tree trunks. I casually asked why these heads were to be installed and the designer said “ If a hurricane hits and they want to grow grass in this area they will be mad at me because they will need to retrofit the system.” As I walked off I thought about the last real hurricane I saw in this region was back in 1960.

   From the field, a few more pleasant recollections. The classic is the infamous “nozzle fight”. The designer wants x amount of coverage and the super knows how windy it gets in late June and he wants bigger nozzles. We install the designer nozzles and then the turf starts wilting in lop-sided oval patterns and we get a panic laden directive to change all the nozzles-all 1100 of them.

  Another enjoyable experience is the confusion caused by the numerous thread types available in sprinkler bases. You can get ACME or IPS or several other types. The problem is when you put an ACME thread onto a IPS swing joint-it will leak enough to drive every golfer crazy. I heard of a shipment of swing joints that had mismarked threads - they all went in the ground and the contractor had to replace all the swing joints after they started leaking.

  We just bid an 18 hole retrofit for 2.1 million. Miles of wire and pipe. We will gladly do the work. That’s why they call it “Irritation”.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
...
I am preparing to put in another 18 in the future, I'd love to learn from other's mistakes and successes.   

Would this be the rumored TD 18?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
As-builts, As-builts, As-builts.......you can never overdo an as-built. The more info recorded at installation the better. It relieves so much confusion, time and money down the road.

Kyle Harris

As-builts, As-builts, As-builts.......you can never overdo an as-built. The more info recorded at installation the better. It relieves so much confusion, time and money down the road.

I'll second this, and don't forget any clubhouse or "other" irrigation.

Nothing like trying to guess where any type of valve is, especially while using divining rods. Also helpful are accurate descriptions of the size of pipe and the type of fittings used.

Don_Mahaffey

Pat,
Here are a couple of thoughts from our recently competed project.

1. Seriously consider going with a decoder system. We installed a Rainbird decoder system and it has worked outstanding. I can go into more detail if you'd like, but if you want to save big $$$ on copper, want a system that is unbelievably easy to troubleshoot,  very easy to add on to (lake fills, wells, lighting...), take a hard look at using decoders. If you consider using decoders give me a call and I'll help you any way I can.

2. Get a high quality handheld GPS unit (ours cost 6K) and GPS everything as you go. Every pipe, fitting, spice, grounding rod, utility line, drain line, bunker drains...etc...was mapped before the trench was filled. No more irrigation design firm employees showing up after the job is complete and walking around with the contractor..."I think there is a Tee here”... map as you go is the only way for me.   

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat,

I recall working on a design for one super (thankfully extreme and not typical) who kept having us upsize the pipe so he could water everything faster.  At one point, he wanted to add pipe size so he could water more quickly in the event that rain shortened his water window!  (think about that one for a bit)


Jeff,

this is a real problem for many courses especially in areas that experience high rainfall. Next time if I were you, I would suggest to the super that as soon as it starts to rain he should suspend play and cover the greens. This is a method that has worked very well for many years at Wimbledon for the tennis. At night he could erect a large tent over all irrigated areas which would help to stop rain messing up his irrigation program :D

Pat Brockwell

Garland, Way off topic.

Don, I think you have a decoder system because I told Mike about ours! I am planning on a GPS because Mike told me about yours!

When I was doing that one crazy as-built I had a veteran guy tell me about an as built he did that was really easy because he did it after the course was grassed.

Davis Wildman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Don has a great point...gps everything, or rather map it so you can find it later and before it is covered up, but not necessarily with any gps and not necessarily with gps. 

Several important issues here; not all gps is created equal, or stated another way, not all gps or 'high quality' gps deliver the same accuracies; especially under or near trees or other 'blockages' to line of sight of satellites.  If you lose sight of just one satellite and don't gain another, accuracy suffers.  Signal that 'bounces' off trees or buildings (called multi-path) contributes significantly to accuracy/positional degradation.

Submeter gps has too much positioning error compared to survey gps; even for area calculations...up to 10% more/less than what survey grade (centimeter positioning) produces...that's a lot! 

If you want to test your gps, try mapping one green at different times of the day and compare the area values.  You will notice that your area value will change; sometimes as much as 6%-10% and more depending on satellite availability.    The shape of the green will remain generally the same, unless the green/tee/bunker is near or has trees surrounding it.

Not sure if $6K will do the job...is this 'real-time' positioning or post-processed?  Frankly, even submeter gps is not good enough for line or point mapping of buried asset(s) because and given best case accuracy, most gps manufacturers state accuracies at 50% (CEP-circular error probability) or 66% (HDRMS-Horizontal Root Mean Square or one standard deviation), which is not that good statistically speaking and no submeter gps gives reliable vertical values, so it can't be used for greens modeling or any topographic mapping or where accurate vertical values are needed.

I apologize for the OT on gps here, but there is just too much mis-information about gps.  Given the cost of building a golf course and the value of the asset, it only makes sense to deliver an As-Built or Asset Inventory using survey tools...RTK GPS, Robotic Total Station and/or 3D Laser Scanner...and in lots of cases, all three are needed.

If the As-Built is produced during construction, as Don says, it will be of much greater use to the Super, his associates, management and membership and others well into the future.  If there is a problem below grade, the location data can be given to a gps mapper and relocated before digging...no treasure maps here.  Also, the 'Z' or vertical value is noted so anyone digging will know how far down to go before they hit or break a line.

The data can be repurposed for other initiatives; web publishing, fly-throughs, yardage books, scorecards, pin sheets, agronomic budgeting, irrigation control software and out-sourced, bidded vendor services.

As-Builts are serious business.  The As-Built represents the 'best work' of the builder and the architect and serves as the historical or 'legacy' document for later reference, repair, renovation and restoration in some cases.

OK...thanks for the indulgence.  I'm a newbie with few posts and have over the past year since I began reading find the site to be very informative and at times very funny.  I can't stay away!

I'll find the 'Who are you guys' post and introduce myself.

Thank you






Don_Mahaffey

Davis,
I agree that what matters is the accuracy of the end product.

In our case, so far everything has turned out to be dead nuts on. I'll admit that I haven't spent a lot of time around GPS (or mapping) experts, but my time with Mike Nuzzo has convinced me that he knows what he's doing. Of course an aerospace engineering degree, years of experience working with GPS in the aerospace industry, and many years mapping courses has most likely given him the experience and knowledge he needs to accurately map a golf course. At least to me it seems like he's pretty dang good at doing it!

As far as whether the 6K unit was good enough, I suppose you'll have to ask Mike. I do know that we questioned every expense and we took it on as a challenge to build the best possible golf course in the most practical manner. We did not try and do any vertical mapping as Mike had the site mapped with an aerial survey prior to construction. Maybe he'll jump in here and share more details as this is all really out of my league.

Welcome to GCA.   

Eric Morrison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Make sure you use at least 3 different types of heads on each fairway with variable spacing techniques...one lateral with 2 heads for wider parts, one head in smaller widths, then put one part circle head in where the wind blows the water 50 feet over the target area. Or even better, face the part circle into the wind so the target area can see the water but never feel it. Then backfill all your trenches with the rock that is on site, making sure to nick all the wires. Then have one isolation valve for 3 holes.
I can go on and on...isn't irritation fun???!!!
It is what it is.

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