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Phil_the_Author

A Tallahassee Puzzle...
« on: August 14, 2008, 10:03:09 AM »
I just got back from Tallahassee where I had the privilege of researching Tilly's redesign of the existing 1915 9-hole H.H. Barker design and his new additional 9-hole design. This was originally a private club called the Tallahassee Country Club (and even was called by several other names in the early years).

In doing so I turned up an interesting and very unexpected newspaper account. In the May 1, 1908, issue of the Tallahassee Democrat (morning daily newspaper) it made mention of the "Country Club Organized." The first president was Co. John S. Winthrop and the club was organized at "The Grove." (For all of you Floriad-philes that name [the Grove] should jump out at you!)

It also stated about the Grove, "Mrs. [Reinette] Hunt having hospitably tendered the use of her beautiful residence and grounds for the purpose. In the grounds at the front of the house there will be tennis courts and croquet grounds, while back of the house are golf links already formed."

"GOLF LINKS ALREADY FORMED!"

1908 & someone (the Hunt's) in Tallahassee evidently has a private golf course on their property?

Any ideas on who designed this course and any possible details?  ;D

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Tallahassee Puzzle...
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2008, 12:03:57 PM »
Philip,

Are you're talking about Capital City CC?  How is the course today?

Phil_the_Author

Re: A Tallahassee Puzzle...
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2008, 12:21:32 PM »
Hi Scott,

Yes, it is today's capital City CC. It has developed some severe problems with a number of their greens that will require them to be completely rebuilt. In fact, they just interviewed several architectural firms to see who to hire to oversee a complete restoration back to Tilly.

In the late 1950's the city (who took over ownership in the mid-30's and hired Tilly to do the redesign) built a new & larger clubhouse on a different site. As a result several original holes were lost and the course was played from different starting/finishing holes.

Today there are still 15 of Tilly's originally-routed holes and the plan is to bring them back as close to original as possible and to redo the other three as Tilly-like as possible.

For those who have never been there, it is the first course I ever walked on where my first thought was "These trees HAVE to be saved!" They have the most magnificent old-growth oak trees, some of which are VERY old and almost are beautiful.

The site is rolling hills of the kind that EVERY architect dreams of working on. Supposedly, in the early 1990's, Fazio told them that if they let him he'd build them a better course than Augusta the property is so good! (Take THAT with a grain of salt...)

If they do it they will have a 6,800 yard course that every golf architecture junkie will be looking to play...

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: A Tallahassee Puzzle...
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2008, 01:25:16 PM »
I worked in Tallahassee in the late 1990s and bartended a little at Capital City. The story was that Tilly came in and just took out bunkers and had nothing to do with the design or redesign.

Are their plans for sure?

Anthony


Thomas MacWood

Re: A Tallahassee Puzzle...
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2008, 02:06:52 PM »
Phil
There was an amateur golf architect who was fairly active in that part of Florida. His name was Colonel Gillespie....I believe he was a Scot. I wouldn't be surprised if Gillespie was your man.

Phil_the_Author

Re: A Tallahassee Puzzle...
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2008, 02:40:57 PM »
Tom,

I came across Col. Gillespie's name, in fact he was among the founders of the club, and the small blurb in the article mentioned that he had come from Scotland. I immediately thought that he may have been involved somehow, but there was no mention of his designing this or any other course. I am greatly intrigued that this family had their own private links and that it might even have been built in the late 1890's.

Anthony, your information is incorrect. Tilly visited the course in December of 1935 during his PGA Course Consultation Tour. That is probably why your information suggests that he only recommended bunker removal.

In his letter to George Jacobus of the PGA following his visit, Tilly wrote how he was met by (among others), F.C. Elliott (President of the Club) & William galt (Chairman of the Green Committee and City Manager). After noting that they wanted to extend the "present nine holes to eighteen," he stated that "both Elliot and Galt are engineers of rare ability and experience, who also possess fine knowledge of golf course requirements."

This was far more than a polite statement, especially in Elliot's case. He is the engineer who oversaw the project to drain the Everglades and regain the land for Florida.

Tilly further stated that, "Already they had prepared a plan for the new holes on contour maps and with profiles. I analyzed this work carefully with them and while I generally approved of their plan, there were certain changes which I suggested, which they readily recognized as being improvements. After our study of the contour maps and profiles, we went out over the ground and checked them. I gave them several changes of their present nine holes and instructed them concerning the building of the new ones..."

Evidently his "several changes" for the existing nine holes were more than just a tweaking as when finished they would be increased in length by more than 300 yards and re-routed.

Tilly would receive finished prints from Elliot several weeks later while out in San Diego. He wrote to Jacobus that, "What was to have been my first day of service in this section of California, turned out to be a very raint one. Consequesntly I put it in, studying and checking the plans, which had been sent to me for that purpose by F.C. Elliot, president of the Tallahassee (Florida) Country Club. You will recall that my report from that city outlined their program. After a careful check of the vity engineer's [Elliot] plans, I have returned it with notations."

It is really interesting that just the week after this, Mr. Galt resigned his position as City Manager without notice or warning [The reason for doing so has been lost to history but probably had nothing to do with the golf club]. The building of the course was then left in the hands of elliot & the head pro Mr. Budd. 

ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: A Tallahassee Puzzle...
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2008, 02:41:05 PM »
Architects of Golf lists John Budd as the designer with a remodel by R. Albert Anderson that took place in 1960.

The course had, or maybe still has, one of the worst short par-4s I've experienced. Two large trees - I believe about 40 yards short of the green - guarded each side of the fairway creating a "field goal" atmosphere on the approach.

Anthony


ANTHONYPIOPPI

Re: A Tallahassee Puzzle...
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2008, 02:43:35 PM »
Phil

Interesting, very interesting. Very, very interesting. The guys who built it, then, didn't do a very good job or Anderson wiped out much of Tillinghast's work.

Anthony


james soper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Tallahassee Puzzle...
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2008, 03:55:41 PM »
Phil

Interesting, very interesting. Very, very interesting. The guys who built it, then, didn't do a very good job or Anderson wiped out much of Tillinghast's work.

Anthony



or tilly did a poor job.

Phil_the_Author

Re: A Tallahassee Puzzle...
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2008, 04:41:52 PM »
Anthony,

John Budd was the head professional in his first year on the job. He definitely had nothing to do with designing the course (not because of his age or experience) and provided Elliot with day-to-day support in the building of it. That support was almost certainly of the "Yes, Sir" type as again, Elliot's experience as the most important engineer in Florida's history would have precluded anything else.

James, the club redid all the greens in 1957-58 when they built the new clubhouse. As to the quality of these, and this is clearly stated on the set of blueprints I saw, they were to be built to USGA Specifications...

They lasted 45 years bfore going bad in the last few years...