Is/was there a conspiracy against Albert Warren Tillinghast ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayno,

At the time I played it I thought Philadelphia Cricket Club was one hell of a golf course.

I also saw one of the greatest amateur matches between Chet Sanok and Bill Hyndman.  I believe that both were under par.

As to the courses on your list that I've played.

Seaview
Atlantic City
Lehigh
Merion East
Green Valley
Pine Valley

Mike Sweeney,

The way you and most New Yorker's drive, it's no wonder that you think Somerset Hills is 42 miles from the Holland Tunnel.

Rand makes a great map of the NYC area, it's a 75 mile radius map and Philadelphia is included, not to mention Connecticut, Northern PA and Southern NJ.

10 miles equal 2 inches

Somerset Hills is less than 5 inches from NYC limits.

The same for Bethpage.

These distances are as the crow flies, not as he drives after a few drinks.

[wsmorrison]

According to Google Earth, Somerset Hills is 29.75 miles from the nearest point on Manhattan.  It is 25.3 miles from the nearest point on Staten Island.  But then again, if you have Moriarty do the measurements for you, I'm sure you can have it come within 1.2 miles of Manhattan and the topography will be exactly the same as the Alps hole at NGLA 

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

It's OK to shutdown the memory banks when all else fails.

[Patrick_Mucci]

According to Google Earth, Somerset Hills is 29.75 miles from the nearest point on Manhattan.  It is 25.3 miles from the nearest point on Staten Island. 

Since Staten Island is part of New York City, 25.3 miles would fall within the +/- 25 mile radius.

Of course a Boston College graduate would have difficulty with the decimals and the geography.  These city dwellers rarely venture outside of their local neighborhoods, let alone across a river.  Their view of America is NYC, Los Angeles and some uncharted land in between

But then again, if you have Moriarty do the measurements for you, I'm sure you can have it come within 1.2 miles of Manhattan and the topography will be exactly the same as the Alps hole at NGLA 

Now, now, let sleeping dogs lie.

One of my points was that there might be a geographical bias against AWT due to the inordinate number of quality courses he designed within a relatively small area.

Do you think that the raters ever said, "hey look, we can't place all these courses that high up, people will think there's a MET area bias, we have to have a broader geographical distribution of the rankings in order for them to be perceived as credible and non-biased" ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayno,

Add Woodcrest to the list.

I only wish the holes across the street were built.

[John Moore II]

Pat--I am not sure that there is a bias against anyone. I mean, yes, there are a lot of courses in the area that are very good (so you say, I have never played any of them, but as I have said before, should you like to invite me to sample the greatness, I am mostly free) but that doesn't mean there is a bias against him. I think people that know anything about golf know that great golf courses are in places where there is a concentration of great deals of money. New York City certainly fits that bill. As does Chicago, LA, and now (though the courses aren't on the level of Long Island) Palm Beach. People would understand if those courses were all ranked the best. Perhaps there are just courses that are better in other places.

[Mike Sweeney]

In about a 25+/- mile radius AWT was responsible for

Pat,

I know it is tough for the ND Football players to have to attend class, maybe the golfers need to follow their example. 

ra·di·us   1. a straight line extending from the center of a circle or sphere to the circumference or surface: The radius of a circle is half the diameter. 

Where would you rather play? The Town of Southampton, New York with 3 top top ranked courses in a small cluster that the raters seem to enjoy or the 75 mile radius around Times Square (not throwing in the Ward rule of Long Island counts except for Fishers, which still counts even if it sort of fits with Connecticut when the ferry is running  ).

I spoke to a friend today who is in Minnesota, and he tells me a number of courses there would blow away a number of the Tilly courses that you have listed.

If the two of you are using Alpine as part of your argument, you are clearly reaching. And the 10th hole at Alpine may be the most overated hole in The Met!

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

Your friend, "I spoke to a friend today who is in Minnesota, and he tells me a number of courses there would blow away a number of the Tilly courses that you have listed..." is correct.

For example, there are Golden Valley CC & Rochester G & CC...

Oh wait, they were designed by Tilly also! 

[Michael Moore]

What other architect has that collection of quality courses within a +/- 25 mile radius ?

I believe all the course cited fall within a 25 mile radius of the New York City limits.

Pat -

I will ignore the first bit of transparent dissembling, and although I am not sure what radii have to do with the non-circular shape that is New York, I believe that I understand what you are asking.

I agree with Mike Sweeney all the way regarding the ouevre of Donald Ross in the area depicted below. I find these courses to be more sporty, less predictable, closer to the ocean, and more subtle and charming than the aforementioned Tillinghast courses, which are painted with a broad brush in comparison.



Agawam Hunt
Belmont
Brae Burn
Charles River
Metacomet
Oyster Harbor
Plymouth
Pocasset
Point Judith
Rhode Island Country Club
Sakonnet
Salem
Triggs Memorial
Wannamoisett
Whitinsville
Wianno
Winchester

plus about a dozen rock solid nine-hole courses.

No conspiracy.

[Mike Sweeney]

According to Google Earth, Somerset Hills is 29.75 miles from the nearest point on Manhattan.  It is 25.3 miles from the nearest point on Staten Island.  But then again, if you have Moriarty do the measurements for you, I'm sure you can have it come within 1.2 miles of Manhattan and the topography will be exactly the same as the Alps hole at NGLA 

Mr Moore,

Thank-you for throwing Wianno a bone with your map placement. Misquamicut took a hit but we on The Cape appreciate your help. 

It should also be noted that while golf balls go in straight lines, cars drive on roads. Google Maps is the more accurate tool for measuring driving distance! Radius is more accurately measured with Google earth, but of course Father Sullivan at Notre Dame forgot to explain that!

PS. Since Newport is a Tilly and a Ross, we all might be right!

[SWolffe]

Phil:  Good Points! 
Jim: if you want to expand the group at BCC and need another member I am happy to help. 

Stuart

ps - Is an GCA event going to happen up at Beechtree? 

[Matt_Ward]

Mike S:

You lost me with your uncanny sense of logic.

How is the 10th at Alpine the "most overrated hole in The Met?"

The Jersey Open was recently conducted at Alpine and the hole fared as the 3rd most challenging based on scores made there.

The fairway provides sufficient width and if a player understands the nature of what the green does can negotiate the approach correctly.

Mike, you've got people on this site who gush about the Dell and Klondyke holes at Lahinch which are basically versions of gotcha type design but the 10th at Alpine may rate as one of Tillie's most unique inventions given the time when the hole was created, the natural obstacles he had to overcome and the dollars available at that time. Clearly, it is a quirk hole but one that definitely adds to the lore in playing the course.

If you have some unique slant on what the 10th is missing please knock yourself out and provide it.

[Mike Sweeney]

How is the 10th at Alpine the "most overrated hole in The Met?"

The Jersey Open was recently conducted at Alpine and the hole fared as the 3rd most challenging based on scores made there.

Matt,

The 18th at Doral was the #1 hardest hole on the PGA Tour in 2007. ZippityDooDah, let's all jump on a plane and go play it! (yes, I have played it and actually made par on the 18th at Doral  )

Other than a close to 100 foot elevation climb, where is the architecture on the 10th at Alpine? We could be at Hudson Hills! 



Alpine was an engineering marvel as it took 200 men two years to dynamite rock outcroppings, clear forest, drain swamps and bulldoze and shape the land, but let's not confuse it with some of his best work.

Matt you have to give up watching Season 4 of The Sopranos on DVD over there in New Jersey on that comfy couch and get out and see the Tilly work in Minnesota. 

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Where is the architecture ?

Mike, my dear friend -- first the eyes go and then shortly thereafter the brain follows. What a pity indeed !

My referencing of scores from the NJ Open was to indicate how many players failed to understand what the hole provides for and what it doesn't.

The fairway was widened years ago -- if people want to see what the previosu hole looked like check out Bill Quirin's excellent, "Golf Clubs of the MGA" under the Alpine heading.

Tillie successfully negotiated a difficult reverse pivot in getting to the back nine of the course through the design of the 10th. It's not everyone's cup of tea but when I see people gushign about the quirk overseas and then you come forward with your beliittling of the hole I would dare say it's high time you open your eyes and let whatever light shine through.

Let's talk about the architecture shall we.

The proper play is down the right side nearest to the OB which runs up that side of the property line. If you opt to play away from that side -- the feeling at the tee is that the left side is better -- you then encounter a series of trees which hang very close to your line of flight should you be on that side.

The player has the option at the tee to hit a good ways up the hill and leave a shorter shot but the fairway does neck in a bit around the 275 mark.

Mike, you ignorantly dismiss the course as one of Tillie's better layouts. The 10th would never be built today because modern engineering would have leveled off just about any topography that exists there.

Let me mention that the approach shot is also quite neat. You have to hit your approach above the hole because being even an inch short will leave a very trying third. Hey Mike -- guess what -- that's called architecture !

If the pin is placed left it's a good bit easier to get nearer the hole. If it's on the right side you have to be especially careful not to fly long and right of that location -- it's likely deadsville ifyou do.

When one throws forward an all-quirk 18 for the NYC metro area the 10th at Alpine would clearly be one of the candidates from the ones I have played. Is it perfect? No. Is it consistent with what modern design would likely do today? No.

But it is rather fun to play and enjoyable once you understand its mystery and magic.

Thanks for the tip on Minnesota -- I've been and plan on returning.