Pine Valley or Shinnecock.....Which is # 1 in the USA ?

[Sean_A]

Chip

That is an interesting observation about the downwind holes.  Do you think Flynn could have backed off on purpose thinking that if the wind is howling a wild green could be out of control?  I think archies need a bit more leeway where wind can be a serious factor.  Most golfers I know like a bit of respite  when the wind is up and offering a few greens of a more basic design is one way to provide this.

To answer a riddle such as which is better sounds an impossible task.  It must be so difficult to seperate the preferences and experiences from the design quality. 

Ciao

[TEPaul]

Chip:

Since you mentioned #3, #12 and #14 as examples, you do realize, don't you that #3 green was apparently basically a "reuse" (from Macdonald's  course). I don't have much to say about #12 but #14 surprised us in its basic construction engineering. I can't remember where we saw the explanation but it struck me as sort of counter-intuitive. When one looks at that green from the fairway one gets the impression that Flynn must have basically had to ream out a big swale-like natural landform in there to make the green but If I'm not mistaken I believe he had to go the other way---eg build it up from natural grade. Whatever he did I think he sure made it look like it's a natural grade landform that is until you walk behind it and notice how low it gets back there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayno,

If you believe that the WIND is the greatest asset to golf, then I'd have to agree that SHCC is the course of preference over PV and Merion.

But, as Archie stated, there's not a weak hole at PV, not one.
Could # 1 and # 12 at SHCC be considered weak  ?

As to CPC, it's a wonderful golf course, but does it pass the "no weak holes" test ?  ?   ?

Does NGLA have a weak hole ?  I know it has the same wind as SHCC.

[TEPaul]

"Does NGLA have a weak hole ?"


Pat:

You know me---I believe NGLA has 1/2 a weak hole. What other golf course can say that? 

[ChipOat]

Sean Arble:

I've never read any of Flynn's notes, but I can't believe your hypothesis  isn't 100% spot-on.  The prevailing wind is a big factor at both SHGC and NGLA as it's direction is well known - I guess that's why it's called "prevailing", huh?

Also, the only greens (almost) that invite the ground game at Shinnecock the most are all generally played 1-3 clubs downwind.  These would be #'s 1,2,3,5,12,14.  2 exceptions: #7 (Redan) asks for the ground game and is generally into the wind.  #11 (my favorite short-ish Par 3 in all the world) has a small green that requires the aerial game and it is usually DOWNwind.  However, you at least get to play it with a medium-short iron and hit your shot off a tee.

[TEPaul]

We sure believe Flynn knew exactly what he was doing with all things to do with the wind in that design. The whole idea of "turning" the golfer constantly with the basic use of "triangulation" was also a pretty big deal then which SHGC is one of the best examples there is.

[JESII]

Chip and Tom,

What does it mean/imply that some of the most difficult greens at Pine Valley are at the end of some of the toughest holes?  Thinking specifically of #'s 5 and 15, but a few others could fit if you consider 1930 distance intentions...#4, #13, #16...


Thoughts?

[TEPaul]

We sure believe Flynn knew exactly what he was doing with all things to do with the wind in that design. The whole idea of "turning" the golfer constantly with the basic use of "triangulation" was also a pretty big deal then which SHGC is one of the best examples there is.


Would Flynn have done anything much different with that course and the routing if he had a completely "clear clay" project at Shinnecock? That is one of the most interesting questions of all with that particular golf course at that time.

One of the things Flynn had to do there is build in particular sections to essentially keep the members in play all the time by using holes from the old course and then transitioning them out of play when new holes that kept the number at  eighteen were built and in play. As we know a few of the former holes or parts of them were keep as the finished product.

Flynn essentially designed three separate nines there but the club did not have them built or used that way. The last sector to get selected was the #10-#13 sequence area. The club's primary principle at that time, Lucien Ting bought that section himself instead of the section to the north of the 12th green that is now a housing development. Flynn had some hole iteration drawings up in there.

[Chris Simonson]

I've played both; Pine Valley, no question.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Many architects used the double, reverse direction loops to bring wind variety into play, I wonder if Flynn was the first to use the triangulation method ?

I'm not so sure about your labeling # 9 as a 1/2 weak hole.

The tee shot sure has a lot going on for it.

And, while the second shot may appear bland, much depends upon where  your drive ends up.  If you're on the slope, the second shot becomes more demanding.

But, I'd agree, the LZ on the second shot could use more bunkering to bring it up from a good/decent hole to an outstanding hole, especially into the wind.

I like the green and its slight fall away nature, the subtle undulations and the steep drop offs.

Additional bunkers in the second shot LZ would enhance the hole.
Or, perhaps a restoration, vis a vis relocating a bunker fronting the green would be helpful.

Take a look at a current Google Earth aerial and the 1938 aerial of Southampton, Shinnecock and NGLA and compare the bunker configuration on # 9.