They just don't mix

[Patrick_Mucci]

I played a golf course the other day that many on this site would like due to its seemingly natural look.

I've played the golf course many times, but,
There is something about the golf course and my game that are incompatible.  I just don't feel comfortable and don't score well, never have.  And, it's not the lack of scoring that's driving my mindset.

Despite the beauty of the golf course it feels awkward to play.
It just doesn't set up comfortably for me.

The angles of the holes, the cant of the fairways, the tilt of the approaches to the greens all seem awkward, TO ME.

Conversely, my comfort factor and my game seems to fit perfectly on other courses, even demanding or difficult courses.

What causes these opposite feelings ?

Does anyone find that certain courses just suit their game and comfort level, and that other courses just cause them fits, and an uncomfortable feeling when they play them ?

[brad_miller]

yes Pat, just hope it isn't the course that you play most often

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad,

Thankfully, it's not.

But, once a year is more than enough.

Some people absolutely love it, but my game, or what's left of it these days, is incompatable with the golf course.
But, even when I was playing well, we just didn't mix.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Pat
Does it make you want to "beat" the course that much more?
cheers
mike

[TEPaul]

Wow, Praise the Lord, Hallejullah, Hosanna on High, Allah is Great!

Pat Mucci, for the first time has actually told us what and how he really honestly feels about architecture (or certain architecture)! This sounds suspiciously like his unadulerated opinion--not some constructed question and answer period to test our ability to answer something in what he perceives as an unbiased manner!

Pat, this is wonderful! We can finally have a conversation knowing how you really feel! You da Man!

If it would be easier for you I'll call Dr. Katz and get him to provide his most comfy couch so you can lie down, take a few deep breathes and just let all this flow out!

Of course we'll all be there listening but I promise I'll make these yahoos be considerate and mannerly and polite--that even includes me, by the way!

You can cry, you can scream and sob, you can get outrageouly angry, but just let these demons out!

If you ask me this will get you to the bottom of this thing you have against nature in architecture! This can get you to the bottom of why everything in golf and its architecture has to be so formulaic, standardized, orderly and structured all the time! This might even allow you to understand and accept comfortably that which is random and rugged!

This is exciting as hell! One of the otherwise good guys might finally be brought back from the Dark Side. Just let it all hang out Pat, we're gonna bring you home Pal!

I just have one question and since this is very early in this remedial and healing process you should probably just answer yes or no and not even attempt to get into the slightest explanation, at this point.

The question is: Did your Mommy and Daddy lose you outside for a time when you were a teeny little tike? Anyone knows the outdoors and the overwhelming fears of all that great big nature can be a very scaring experience for a little tike who thinks his Mommy and Daddy abondoned him in all that horrifying, fearsome nature!

So just lie back and let it all hang out! You won't regret it--I guarantee it!

Oh sorry, I forgot! If it's not too painful, could you tell us what that course is that you felt so uncomfortable on that you said many of us would feel has a natural look to it?

[Ed_Baker]

Patrick:

Pretty strong stuff from a player of your caliber,but understandable. Many of the tour pros adjust their schedules for the very reason of your thread premise. Some golf courses just don't fit "their eye." Once they are established on tour, many "skip" tournaments that they struggled with when they were starting out. Didn't a "name" player just use that very reason for skipping the British, because the course "didn't suit his game?"

Personally, I "favor" the style of the classics because many allow 'run-up" shots, I hit the ball low and for any chance of a good score I need to run the ball on the green with a fairway wood on any 400 yard plus par 4.

Now, having said that, I LOVE Pine Tree even though it doesn't really suit my game, I appreciate it for what it is(the greatest flat course in America) and I have learned to stay short of the bunkers on the holes I can't fly the ball to the green and then pitch the ball and hope for a 1 putt. I like the individual holes, the routing, the greens and surrounds ect.

Succession on the other hand, feels awkward all day simply because of the number of forced carries required and the fact that I am only capable of taking the "safe" line off the tee all day, which makes for nasty approach angles and pretty much a string of bogies. I very much enjoy the membership, the staff, and the clubhouse, but the golf course is just too much for my game when I play the appropriate tees for my handicap. Conversley when I move up a set of tees I shoot several shots better than my handicap because I am now hitting middle and short irons in to relatively small flat greens. I am talking about the middle and short sets of tees here, I couldn't break 120 from the back tees with any wind.

Now, is Sucession an excellent and interesting golf course? Yes it is, but my own lack of length and low shot trajectory make it a chore to play even though I like and respect everything about the place.I still play it 6 to 8 times a year even though I know it is going to kick my ass before I get on the plane.

So sure, there are plenty of venues where a players game and the course "don't mix."

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Calm down lad, no need to get so excited.

You do recall my love of NGLA, GCGC, Shinnecock, Maidstone, ANGC, CP, PB, Riviera, WF, Merion, Seminole, The Creek, Inwood and others.

Now, I must tell you that I didn't get this uncomfortable feeling when I played Shadow Creek or Atlantic.

The course I'm referencing is in NJ, and you've probably annexed it in your GAP.  27 holes.

Looks great to others, but for me, it's just awkward to play,
and even awkward looking in some areas.

[TEPaul]

Probably the most notable example of a really good player staying away from a tournament because he felt it didn't suit his game was Trevino and the Masters. He used to say he couldn't draw the ball and so he couldn't play the course. Nicklaus, on the other hand (a lifelong fader), said that was ridiculous on Trevino's part and that Lee could have played the course just fine.

So you see Pat, you're not alone in your psychological affliction which can even affect the likes of a Lee Trevino.

Of course everyone who knows anything about Lee knows he grew up in a neighborhood where his house was down a lane slightly to the right but the local bully lived down a lane slightly to the left and when Lee ventured down there one time he got his ass kicked but good!

It's pretty damn obvious to me this is why Lee was deathly afraid of ever hitting the ball right to left or drawing the ball and why he always felt uncomforatble at ANGC.

If only Dr. Katz could have seen Lee way back when and worked this adolescent fear out of his psyche (like Katz is gonna do for you and your fear of nature, Pat) there's no telling how many Masters Lee could have won!

[Paul_Turner]

Metedeconk?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ed Baker,

I guess each golfer has their "eye" that determines their relationship to the golf course.

On the course I speak of, for me, I think it's the angles.
For example, on a dogleg right, bunkers will be at the right elbow, but the fairway cants left, and well struck drives end up in the left rough, especially if one usually draws the ball.

On approaches, with the green at an angle, the approach kicks the opposite way of the green angle.

There are some holes that I like a great deal, but on balance, the course and my "eye" don't see eye to eye.

There is no doubt that Pine Tree is predominantly an aerial approach golf course.

Running the ball in South Florida is always difficult due to the amount of rain they get, and the ability to rapidly drain torrential and regular rain off of relatively flat golf courses.

The problem gets worse as you go west.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

It's not hard to imagine why you feel comfortable at NGLA and GCGC--both are very old and early courses and consequently  have just enough of an indentifiable manufactured look to them to make you feel comfy.

I admit it appears strange why you feel comfortable on the other courses you mentioned which have far more of a naturally integrated look to them but understanding these things is not always easy. It can be very convoluted sometimes if little tikes like little Patty Mucci went through a really traumatic experience early on!

Unfortunately the mind can be a very complex thing! Not as complex as really good natural architecture but complex nonetheless!

[Scott_Burroughs]

Paul,

You beat me to it.  Metedeconk was my guess, too.  Rulewich/RTJ "championship" course with lots of "natural-looking" fescue.  One of RTJ's last designs, though I wonder how much input he had.


For some reason, Mike Strantz' courses suit my game.  The forced carries with wide fairways work for me.  I play conservative and keep the ball in play.  Fun courses, too.

Other courses that work for me are courses where many holes are parallel, where waywrd drives are findable and hittable.  "Condo canyon" courses with OB or irretrievable sh*t lining each hole don't suit my game.  Wonder why.   :-/

[TEPaul]

OK, Ill admit it--I couldn't think of a thing that made me uncomfortable but as I was reading Mike Cirba's description of that hole replicating course of Kay's he played the other day (Emerald Something) I was sort of into the whole thing until he said the landfill site needed odorous vent holes in bunkers and such.

That not only doesn't suit my game it doesn't suit my nose or anything else. I'm not going down there unless Mike can tell me that those odorous vent hole bunkers have really big wide fairways attached to them so I can really avoid those nasty pits! Then maybe I'll consider it!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Here is what I suggest.  

Given your vaunted accuracy, I would suggest that you write the EPA and ask them to provide you with a "site plan" for the landfill now known as Emerald Golf Links.  

If those bureaucrats did their job, every one of those vents should be properly mapped.  Then, I can get you a routing map of the golf course, which you can simply overlay onto the EPA drawings.  

Along with playing away from the gnarly bunkers, you can use additional strategy to also avoid the vents.  I'm not sure if Kay was sneaky in implementing strategy (i.e. driving near to any particular vent provides the optimum angle for the next shot. ), but even so, there are a number of holes where I'm sure you can figure out a way to sneak up on the hole.

Seriously, though, the only place I noticed anything was on the 13th tee, which sits over the top of a large pond.  Perhaps it was the pond that was responsible for the smell, but it was very local and contained to that particular corner of the course.  

Actually, that corner is the exact furthest point from the "Lido hole", so you should at least get out to see that one with your nasal sensitivities intact.  

I might also suggest playing the front nine, then holes 10 thru 12, skipping 13 thru 16 (the only hole worth seeing in the bunch is the Old Course #14 replication, but that one has some site-specific compromises) and heading right to the nearby 17th tee.  

In fact, if I'd only played 1-9, and 10-12, 17, & 18, I might think it's a really good course and avoided the whole stinking mess!