[Dan Herrmann]

The more I play, the more I think that clever use of angles is key to making a design really stand out as something special.

The course I'm lucky enough to play every day (French Creek) uses angles very well.  Even seemingly straight holes have angles in play due to fairway width and fairway "movement".

Obviously, the world class courses also make excellent use of angles.

What interests me most about angles is the way they affect my mindset over the ball.  Maybe it's because I'm not a single-digit handicapper, but a tough angle can really mess me up.  Even spot aiming can prove fruitless.

I'm not talking about traditional doglegs here - I'm talking about holes with really neat fairway movement that at first glance appear fairly straight but in fact reward a golfer that can use angles well. 

For example,  Merion East #11 and Pacific Dunes #13 are two great holes that make great use of angles.

Question - how does an architect design great angles?   What makes a hole with interesting angles successful?  For players - how does a hole with great angles affect your mindset?  Do they play affect you as much as they affect me?

[Forrest Richardson]

Dan — We have stayed away from angles. Instead, we design in the 6th dimension where there are no angles at all. Instead, there are flavepies. A flavepie is a terrific design tool, I am sure any GCA-er lucky enough to enter the 6th dimension will be very impressed.
 

[Bill_McBride]

Dan — We have stayed away from angles. Instead, we design in the 6th dimension where there are no angles at all. Instead, there are flavepies. A flavepie is a terrific design tool, I am sure any GCA-er lucky enough to enter the 6th dimension will be very impressed.
 

Whatever you've been drinking, I'll have some.

[Forrest Richardson]

Well, I am in Peñasco...so you can guess! Just got back from shopping in town. Bought a whole pig...clay.

[Bill_McBride]

Well, I am in Peñasco...so you can guess! Just got back from shopping in town. Bought a whole pig...clay.

Hopefully the really good anejo!  Enjoy!

How's the course?

[Willie_Dow]

Yes, Dan - fairway width is the answer, IMHO.

At Dartmouth College we had a nine holer designed by Ralph Barton, who was a professor at the college at the time (I think), and he put into this nine a double 90 degree hole.  One off the tee, and another for the second shot.

I wish Merion would widen the eleventh to the left, bringing into play the creek on the left of that fairway.

[Forrest Richardson]

The Links at Las Palomas is at its best, other than the winter when it browns-out and runs even faster. Right now it is amazingly lush and the paspalum turf is wicked. The greens are not as fast as Fall/Winter, but they are very good.

Shot 40 on the back nine....not disclosing the front for personal reasons.

Speaking of angles.......

[Dan Herrmann]

Thanks, Willie - that's what I was getting to..  Fairway width + movement = a wonderful golf hole.

Merion East 11 is a perfect example of that, and you're SO right that widening the fairway to the left would add to its strategy.  Do you know if #11 has ever had that additional width?

[Peter Pallotta]

"The more I play, the more I think that clever use of angles is key to making a design really stand out as something special."

Yes, Dan - I find exactly the same thing, i.e. the more I play (and I haven't played much golf in my life, relatively speaking) the more that I notice angles and the clever use of angles. Maybe there were a lot of more obvious features that I had to get through noticing first. I think the use of angles can also elevate flatter sites and/or inexpensive and modest construction and goals to a higher level. Paul Cowley tried to teach me once about "S" curves and "J" curves. I think I got some of it, but probably not much..

Peter

 

[Sean_A]

I too have a lot of time for angles and lament the elimination of angles with heavy, penal rough, trees, water or an overload of bunkers.  I don't know how many times I see narrow greens angled from the fairway in conjunction with narrow fairways.  Don't folks realize that trying to hit a 15 yard wide green from the wrong angle is one of the joys of the game?  There is a course by me, a bit of a butchered Dr Mac course, Worcester G & CC, which has relentlessly planted trees which take away any option for recovery to its wonderfully strategic greens.  Its such a pity.

Ciao

[Jeff_Brauer]

Sean,

It occurs that witht the "straightening" of shots with perimeter weighted irons, perhaps angles are coming back as more important than they have been in several decades, no?  When you could curve the ball more, it was less hazardous to come from the wrong angle, IMHO.

Of course, the key is whether the contours on a narrow green accept or reject (i.e. fall away) from the improper angle approach.  I tend to help the golfer, figuring distance control is tested well enough, by raising the contours to face the tough angle.

[Peter Pallotta]

"I tend to help the golfer, figuring distance control is tested well enough, by raising the contours to face the tough angle."

And I'd like to thank you for that, Jeff. 

The thing about angles is that they provide an interesting and multi-faceted test to the good golfer, while meanwhile proving to the poor golfer (me) just how bad he is.  That can have a salutory effect, but I still appreciate a break along with my gain in self-knowledge....

Peter

[Dan Herrmann]

I wonder if the loss of angles at ANGC is its biggest post-renovation loss.

[Ron Farris]

I guess, judging from the picture from Forrest that one should define what the CLEVER USE OF ANGLES means. 

Angles are part of the heart and sole of golf course design, IMHO.  The Dye family taught me a lot about angles and years ago I did an analysis of PGA west to determine what was happening with angles and lines to better understand Pete Dye's methods. 

The angle you approach a green complex can certainly determine how one plays a shot.  Many slopes can help a player, if they are approaching from a given angle.  To me, clever use of angles are very evident at Ballyneal and its interior contours.  Chip shots and approaches can go in different directions depending on what angle the ball is travelling at impact. 

I have watched the average golfers, at a course I designed, gradually learn to play the Angles instead of going directly at the flag on every shot (GCat Red Rock). 

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