News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Greens next to OOB Fence
« on: July 20, 2008, 01:21:22 AM »
What courses out there have an OOB fence right next to the green ?

Exhibit A: 14th at Royal St. George's

Do they represent good or bad golf course architecture ?

 

Gerry B

Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2008, 01:43:07 AM »
Left on 18 at carnoustie - was in play  / a factor during last year's british open

17 at maidstone - a quirky short dogleg / cape style hole - miss the green right by a couple of feet  and chances are your ball will end up on the road / OB

i do not mind this feature - it is all in front of you  - to me it is no different than an adjacent greenside hazard save and except the penalty for a miscue is much more severe than a lateral

Jim Nugent

Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2008, 02:28:58 AM »
Carnoustie #18...and Hoylake #18? 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2008, 02:39:14 AM »
Woking #4 - very good use of the oob
TOC #16 - very good use of the oob
TOC #18 - not bad use, the angles aren't so prominent

Ciao


New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2008, 03:22:56 AM »
Merion #7.

Does get much closer than that one.

Merion #12

Supposedly someone has actually putted their ball OB...which I found hard to believe but that is what both caddies said.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2008, 05:56:16 AM »
2 at Talking Stick is the closest I have seen.
In Australia it would be the 3rd at Yarra Yarra - although Anders Forsbrand once putted a ball off the 5th green at Joondalup into a quarry and OOB.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2008, 10:03:00 AM »
The 10th at St George's

It's right off the fringe.

A unique hole with a long ramp leading to the green

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2008, 10:34:59 AM »
Check out Ran's profile of the Royal Liverpool course at Hoylake to see how two great holes with OOB hard by each green were lost to "modernization."  Ran's not very happy about it:

"As successful as the 2006 Open Championship was,  two of Hoylake's most heralded holes were gone from the mix.  In 1930, when Bob Jones won the Open Championship here, the course possessed two of the world’s most feared - and revered - golf holes, the one shot Dowie and the two shot Royal with its long green but a few feet from the boundary line of the property. One definition of a great hole is that it works on the golfer before he plays it and these two holes fit that definition as well as any holes ever have.

In 1910, Darwin, the keenest judge that the world has known regarding what makes for good golf, described The Dowie in The Golf Courses of the British Isles as follows:

Next comes one of the finest short holes in the world, ‘The Dowie’, which is not only very good, but very unique. There is a narrow triangular green, guarded on the right by some straggling rushes and on the left by an out-of-bounds field and cop; there is likewise a pot-bunker in front. To hit quite straight at this hole is the feat of a hero, for let the ball be ever so slightly pulled, and we shall infallibly be left playing our second shot from the tee. Nearly everybody slices at the Dowie out of pure fright, and is left with a tricky little running shot on to the green. The perfect shot starts out of the right, just to show that it has no intention of going out of bounds, and then swings round with a delicious hook, struggles through the little rush hollow, and so home on the green; it is a shot to dream of, but alas! seldom to play.

The Royal, with its green across the road from the Royal Hotel, drew equal praise. As the penultimate hole, and with the opportunity to putt out of bounds, the golfer’s frayed nerves were truly tested. Three bunkers guarded the outside of this dogleg to the left but the angle of the green flush against the out of bounds of the road meant that the golfer sought to be as close to the bunkers off the tee as possible.

Alas, both the holes are no more. As the world became a more litigious place around the turn of the twenty-first century, The Royal was lost as approach shots too readily left the property of the Club. Though sad, the Club had no practical choice in the matter and they turned to Donald Steel to bring the 17th green complex some 30 yards away from the road. He did an admirable job with this task, though some members with their keen eye feel that the green might be a bit out of character (e.g. slightly too big and rolling) with the others on the course.

The demise of the Dowie (named after the first Club Captain, J. Muir Dowie) is more complex. Hoylake, famed as Darwin says for its mighty winds and mighty champions, has always lent its course for the contest of the biggest events. It hosted the first Amateur Championship in 1885, the first contest between amateurs from Great Britain & Ireland and the United States in 1921 (which became the Walker Cup), and in 1967, it hosted its tenth Open Championship. By then though, the game was changing with professional golfers carrying more sway than before. The concept of internal out of bounds was a particularly prickly subject with the professionals and it was decided for the 1967 Open that the area left of the cop on the 7th would not be treated as out of bounds. "

*****

Even with the demise of the Dowie (old #7, #9 in the Open routing) and the Royal (old #17, #1 Open), there are several other opportunities to go OB near the greens at Hoylake with the cops that create interior out of bounds around the old race course.  It's a fascinating and historic golf course, and a lot of fun to play.

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2008, 01:32:53 PM »
After the various examples mentioned already at Hoylake and TOC, my mind wandered to a hole I'd seen in Paul Daley's book, Favorite Holes by Design, the 4th at Tillinghast's Ridgewood CC. In the book, the green is close to OOB but its the second shot which should be kept close to the OOB to give the best angle to the green. However, I'm not sure its still played like this?

Cheers

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2008, 04:45:32 PM »
Royal Porthcawl has three on the outward nine: #2 and #3 are hard against the sea-fence, and #5 has a small green perched next to a stone boundary wall.

Philadelphia Cricket (Wissahickon) has a great par 3 (#15 I think) that's also right against the boundary line.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2008, 07:03:28 PM »
While more a wall than a fence, I can't believe I left out St Enodoc's 4th.  Great use of oob with the added kick of possible luck off the wall.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

CHrisB

Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2008, 09:43:06 PM »
#1 at Royal Liverpool (played as #3 in the Open Championship):

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2008, 09:47:29 PM »
Royal Porthcawl has three on the outward nine: #2 and #3 are hard against the sea-fence, and #5 has a small green perched next to a stone boundary wall.

Philadelphia Cricket (Wissahickon) has a great par 3 (#15 I think) that's also right against the boundary line.

Good call on #15 at Philly Cricket.  That was hole for me that immediately came to mind.  I don't recall another hole with OB that tight to the green.  Especially a 215 yard par 3. The OB is located along the entire right side of the hole and is only a few steps from the right edge of the green.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2008, 10:26:53 PM »

After the various examples mentioned already at Hoylake and TOC, my mind wandered to a hole I'd seen in Paul Daley's book, Favorite Holes by Design, the 4th at Tillinghast's Ridgewood CC. In the book, the green is close to OOB but its the second shot which should be kept close to the OOB to give the best angle to the green. However, I'm not sure its still played like this?


It's not quite that dire, but the second shot should be played left, toward the OB to give the golfer the best angle of attack into that green.

However, increased distances have muted the strategic importance of that tactic.


Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2008, 11:35:50 PM »
The OOB line is very close to the back of the final green at Troon - Greg Norman cleared it easily in the 1989 Open playoff.

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2008, 12:00:03 AM »
What was to the left of The Dowie that caused them to want to move the hole?  Was there a house there?  A school playground?  A busy road?

Seems to me that a better solution to that problem instead of redesign would be to buy a small piece of that land so that if golfers hook over there the neighbors won't complain because it would now be property of the golf course.

But I'd leave the OB fence exactly where it is of course.  Nothing says that the OB fence has to represent the actual property line of the course.  In fact, given this example, it sounds like the case could be made that the OB line should typically be kept inside the actual property line so to minimize the chances of a wild shot leaving the course's property and causing potential legal difficulties.

Curious if anyone would have a problem with a hole that was designed with OB 40 feet left of a green where the actual property line of the course was 140 feet left?
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2008, 12:14:18 AM »
What was to the left of The Dowie that caused them to want to move the hole?  Was there a house there?  A school playground?  A busy road?

Seems to me that a better solution to that problem instead of redesign would be to buy a small piece of that land so that if golfers hook over there the neighbors won't complain because it would now be property of the golf course.

But I'd leave the OB fence exactly where it is of course.  Nothing says that the OB fence has to represent the actual property line of the course.  In fact, given this example, it sounds like the case could be made that the OB line should typically be kept inside the actual property line so to minimize the chances of a wild shot leaving the course's property and causing potential legal difficulties.

Curious if anyone would have a problem with a hole that was designed with OB 40 feet left of a green where the actual property line of the course was 140 feet left?

As far as I now - Ran would know, or others who played the hole before the change - everything left of the green was heavy grass and was out of bounds.

That would even make it testy to miss right (bail out) and then chip across the green...toward the OOB.  ::)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2008, 03:40:58 AM »
What was to the left of The Dowie that caused them to want to move the hole?  Was there a house there?  A school playground?  A busy road?

Seems to me that a better solution to that problem instead of redesign would be to buy a small piece of that land so that if golfers hook over there the neighbors won't complain because it would now be property of the golf course.

But I'd leave the OB fence exactly where it is of course.  Nothing says that the OB fence has to represent the actual property line of the course.  In fact, given this example, it sounds like the case could be made that the OB line should typically be kept inside the actual property line so to minimize the chances of a wild shot leaving the course's property and causing potential legal difficulties.

Curious if anyone would have a problem with a hole that was designed with OB 40 feet left of a green where the actual property line of the course was 140 feet left?

As far as I now - Ran would know, or others who played the hole before the change - everything left of the green was heavy grass and was out of bounds.

That would even make it testy to miss right (bail out) and then chip across the green...toward the OOB.  ::)

Bill

There are definitely not houses in play at Dowie.  I suspect the property line was originally much tighter to the green and later a bit more land was acquired OR perhaps land already owned was cleared.  I also seem to recall some sort of walking path over there and in the old days it was just narly hedges etc.  In any case, oob hard on the green with land sitting out to the left is daft.  About as daft as Carnousties's oob left at the 18th when the real line is further over.  I detest these fake penalties.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2008, 03:48:36 AM »
1st at Prestwick next to the railway lines!!
4th at St Enodoc

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2008, 04:16:45 AM »
The OOB line is very close to the back of the final green at Troon - Greg Norman cleared it easily in the 1989 Open playoff.

Closer still is the road at the back of Klondyke at Lahinch...

A classic out of bounds next to a final green is that of Royal Dublin... a ninety degree dogleg right with OOB the whole way along, thus meaning that you are playing directly over the OOB (The Garden) on your approach to the green...

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2008, 07:34:12 AM »
Ally,

18 at Royal Dublin might be the oddest use of an OOB hazard anywhere.
What a hole.

Paul_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2008, 07:47:12 AM »
Greens' nestled hard by OOB fences are pretty common the world over, especially at the older courses. One of my favourite links, Peterborough Golf Club (Victoria, Australia), has several. Prestwick's OOB area --- barely a metre over the back of it's 18th green --- can cause a twitch with a good score on the line. Royal Troon's finisher, too, but is less of a worry. Royal County Down's 18th. There's a trend here, and throw in TOC and North Berwick's 18th holes. They'll be many more instances of this OOB/Green
proximity.     

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2008, 08:18:28 AM »
The 11th holes at both Royal Troon (Old) and The Grand were the first 2 which came to mind.

Not totally sure you'll accept Troon with the wall right next to the train line and to be truthful I'm surprised noone else mentioned it! The Grand's 11th green (long downhill second over water) has a chook wire fence right behind the green. There's a story to it, but I'm sure Harrison / Norman would do it differently if they had their time again.

edit - just remembered another!

Fly the 16th at Titirangi and you flirt with OOB less than 10m beyond the back edge of the putting surface....

MM
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 08:28:01 AM by Matthew Mollica »
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Greens next to OOB Fence
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2008, 11:33:56 AM »
What was to the left of The Dowie that caused them to want to move the hole?  Was there a house there?  A school playground?  A busy road?

Seems to me that a better solution to that problem instead of redesign would be to buy a small piece of that land so that if golfers hook over there the neighbors won't complain because it would now be property of the golf course.

But I'd leave the OB fence exactly where it is of course.  Nothing says that the OB fence has to represent the actual property line of the course.  In fact, given this example, it sounds like the case could be made that the OB line should typically be kept inside the actual property line so to minimize the chances of a wild shot leaving the course's property and causing potential legal difficulties.

Curious if anyone would have a problem with a hole that was designed with OB 40 feet left of a green where the actual property line of the course was 140 feet left?

As far as I now - Ran would know, or others who played the hole before the change - everything left of the green was heavy grass and was out of bounds.

That would even make it testy to miss right (bail out) and then chip across the green...toward the OOB.  ::)

Bill

There are definitely not houses in play at Dowie.  I suspect the property line was originally much tighter to the green and later a bit more land was acquired OR perhaps land already owned was cleared.  I also seem to recall some sort of walking path over there and in the old days it was just narly hedges etc.  In any case, oob hard on the green with land sitting out to the left is daft.  About as daft as Carnousties's oob left at the 18th when the real line is further over.  I detest these fake penalties.

Ciao

Sean, I didn't say there was, i think Doug was wondering if there were houses over there.  I haven't seen the hole in its original conditions.

It wasn't even the same hole number! (We played as #9 in 2006).  ::)

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back