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Gib_Papazian

Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« on: July 03, 2002, 05:27:29 PM »
It seems impossible, having driven by Fort Ord hundreds of times in my life, but until yesterday, I had never set foot on either golf course.

There was only time to look at one of them, so I jumped in a cart and drove around the Bayonet in sequence, stopping to stand on every tee, every landing area and closely examining the green complexes.

Frankly, I thought it stunk. With the exception of one putting surface - an upper/lower tier combination, falling diagonally away from the line of play - they were nearly identical.

The bunkering looked like a something I might have drawn up in grammar school while doodling in math class.

Endless elevated greens, with narrow ribbons of fairway cut in front of putting surfaces that vaguely resemble the shape of what my dog leaves on the lawn.

Ugly beyond belief.

I've been told the trees and brush have been drastically trimmed, but every single element on the golf course is either arbitrary (rough lines, tree placements) or hopelessly repetitious.

I don't get it! Why is this golf course held in such high esteem? It looks like a long, boring slog full of forced carries, awkward fairways and flat-out hideously ugly bunkers.

A big, retarded, brute.  

The Black Horse (generally regarded as the "other course") was reworked a bit and from what I could see - albeit briefly - it seemed to have far more personality.

Okay guys, what am I missing here??????  

Is this just a case of one of those courses that owes it reputation to its difficulty?    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2002, 05:41:21 PM »
Yes Gib, Mostly hearalded for it's brutishness. And I think you are probably right about the grammar school thang.

 As I understand it was designed by a military lefty who was obviously into some sado-masichistic stuff, way before San Francisco was known for it.

 Do Play it, and see if your opinion doesn't alter, albeit slightly. There are a good number of shots needed to play well there.

If you still hate it, I may have to re-evaluate my opine that one can't build a bad course on the peninsula. ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2002, 06:31:05 PM »
Gib:
I never played there but as a former member of our Military - I ask "what do you expect from the Gov't."  I'll bet the fact that 8 zillion GI's got to play there for about $4.00 a round has something to do with why it is held in such esteem.

Best
Dave
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill Wright

Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2002, 09:42:11 PM »
I have to agree with Gib, Bayonet is a slog.  Unfortunately, reading the original thread, I have to admit I thought was reading a description of Olympic's Lake Course.  Tom Doak once called Sandpiper the "Torrey Pines of the North" as opposed to the "Pebble Beach of the South".  So, is the Lake Course "Bayonet of Baghdad by the Sea" (as Herb Caen coined it) or is Bayonet the "Lake Course of the Monterey Peninsula"?   ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2002, 11:40:49 PM »
Bill Wright, first of all, Herb Caen called SF "Bagdad by the Bay".  Note the aliteration.

Secondly, why don't you give us a hole-by-hole critique of the Lake cse.  Some of us might find it interesting.  I'll grant a waver to my personal policy that guests at private clubs shouldn't air their negative comments.  Let's hear 'em.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

A_Clay_Man

Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2002, 06:12:13 AM »
Gib- I wonder how many courses would look good after the round you had just prior to your tour of Bayo? ::) ;D

Or, Was this posted just to get the Leprachauns goat?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_Ryzewski

Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2002, 09:11:38 AM »
Gib,

While living in Gilroy from 1996-2000 I played Bayonet quite a lot and while I agree with some of what you’ve written I disagree with your statements concerning the greens. You can’t eyeball those greens and fully appreciate the built-in (whether planned or by chance) deceptiveness. They are some of the trickiest greens I’ve ever putted, in fact the green you cited (the short 7th, before the front nine was re-routed) has never stood out as the best of the bunch in my mind.

I’m mostly a lurker on this site and an admitted novice when it comes to evaluating golf design, my experience limited to mostly courses of the public domain and what I’ve read (Doak, Shack, and Klein). That said, here’s my defense of Bayonet, keep in mind I believe the front nine has been re-routed and I have no scorecard to help with yardage.

Hole 1-  Pretty mundane opening, average length, straight away par 5. FW bunker on left guards against bailout to one of the few open areas of the course. Two good, long shots and you should be around the green. The left bunker may lead you astray on the blind approach as it is removed from the greens edge and the green is farther right that it appears from the fairway. The green gives you only the slightest hint of the effect grain (for lack of a better word) has on what'’ to come.

Hole-2  Mid-long par4 with probably the most demanding tee shot on the course. For a long time I tried to fit a fade through the narrow gap created by  the trees pinching in from the right, later on I decided a layup with a 4 wood was the best play leaving a 3 or 4 iron to the flatish green. Well placed bunker front-left and difficult run-up is available right.

Hole 3- Short par 4 with well placed fw bunker right and overhanging tree gaurding the approch from left. Here’s where the greens start getting  a little tricky, particularly a right pin placement.

Hole 4- 600+ par –5 comparable to 16 at the Lake Course (?).

Hole 5 (new 9?)- Long 4 must find fairway leaving 190+ uphill to kidney shaped green with another well placed bunker guarding back left.  Beyond hole high you’ll be putting straight down grain and down a slight slope. Toughest par on the course IMO.

Hole 6 (new 7?) – mid length par 3 to large green with small false front. Trees behind green mask wind  making club selection apprehensive.

Hole 7 (new 8?)- Short par four that tempts. Users of the 1-wood will soon find out that a low spin pitch to this green (fronted by another well placed bunker) will not hold the right side as it slopes away and is down grain. Even full shots need to land front middle as the will likely release toward the back. The approch to the left is much easier, but rarely used.

Hole 8 (new 5?)- 200 or so par 3. It’s easier to be chipping from the left side to a left pin position than putting from the right. Next time your there try two-putting from the right or back of the green to a front left pi position, especially if it’s fast and firm. One of the best greens on the course, if underwhelming to LOOK at.

Hole 9 (new 6?)- Short par 4 with narrow green sloping back to front, straight down grain. It’s better to have an uphill 40 footer than a 10 foot downhiller. You’ll be amazed at how long a putt down the fall line stays dead straight.

Hole 10- Par 5. Runs parallel to #1 and strategically the same until you get to the green where a right to left slope, however slight is greatly exacerbated by the grain, a tough two putt.

Hole 11 (The beginning of Combat Corner) The story is General McClure was a large lefty with a big slice and the next two holes provided him a chance to go 2-up on a back nine nassau. Not quite a  90 degree dogleg but close (it looks 90 from the tee and was until it was soften a few years back.). This hole provides the most interesting set of options off the tee. Cutting the corner to various degrees (but not two much) greatly reduces the yardage on the second which is important. The obvious approach is a draw into the front right or middle of the green (watch out for the well placed bunker). From there you’ll have what looks like an easy uphiller to (the green slopes from back-left to front-right, Gen McClure remember) except that it is again straight down grain and the fastest damn uphill putt you’ve ever had! This is one of the most confounding greens I’ve ever played

Hole 12- Now this IS a 90 degree dogleg (L) uphill. You’re better off hitting straight away if you can’t hit a controlled draw (there’s no cutting corners here unless you can  carry 280 or so). Straight away you’ll have an awkward 5 or 6 iron approach to green barely visible. Now that you’re all turned around it’s hard to remember which way the grain runs (you are THINKING about it now), Here’s a hint: listen for the traffic on route 1, the grain grows towards just south of the buzz.

Hole 13 Long par 4. The most picturesque hole on the course, down hill with the bay in the background. It’s hard to think ugly standing on this tee. Fairway provides a turbo boost running obliquely, left to right 250-270 yards off the tee that can make the difference between a 4 wood or 6 iron approach. Over cooked draws kick left off fairway. Green has it’s subtleties but is rather generous. Bailout right provides best chance for recovery.

Hole 14 Uphill par 3 that can stretch from 160- to well over 200 yards. Once again don’t get too far past pin high. Just carrying the well placed bunker is ideal.

Hole 15- Gen McClure’s last chance to close the match, another dogleg left to the most severely sloped green on the course (left to right, straight down grain). Another Nicklaus Walked Off story takes place here (it’s close to the parking lot). Try putting from left side to right.

Hole 16 Short par 4 with severely canted fairway right to left. A hook nearly anywhere in the fairway will bound down to, you guessed it, another well placed bunker. Shortish approach from hanging lie to a subtlety tiered, well protected green. There 2 or nasty pin placements on this green one being back left, the others being on the front (if I remember correctly).

Hole 17 Mid Iron drop shot par 3 of little distinction except maybe the well placed bunkers, front and back.

Hole 18- Long par 5 dog leg RIGHT! Unreachable unless you fade it well down the left side catching small turbo boost while avoiding rough and trees that line that side. Large green slopes ever so slightly away and, one last time, straight down grain.

I don’t know if these accounts compel you to run out and play Bayonet or not,  but I think you have to play it to understand the subtleties, particularly on the greens. Personally I never tired of trying to break 80 there. It’s a difficult course for sure and difficulty is a most overrated design quality (if a quality at all), but I like the way Bayonet achieves that difficulty, no water, rare OB (1 spot I think) and I never thought of it as overly narrow.  General McClure was a rank (no pun intended) amateur when it came to CG design but he did have a Little help you know ;).

Best Regards,
Bill
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dennis_Harwood

Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2002, 08:14:36 PM »
Bill-- I will second that-- I just finished working the California State Championship, and although I spent sometime at Pebble(where the Championship flight was contested), I was The Rules Chairman at Bayonet, where the serveral flights were contested(generally golfers between 2 and 6 handicaps)--

As Chairman I  talked to many of the players(over 50 or 60 of the contestants), all of whom agreed the course was still a "brute", however they felt the most difficult feature was the subtle breaks on the greens--Most players believed the greens were the most difficult of any course on the Monterey Pen.

The general comment was the course was in great shape, that although it did not have the strategy features of the more estemed neighbors in the Forest, its greens were a match for any course in the area--
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2002, 11:16:10 AM »
Thank you very much guys, especially Bill.

I have no doubt that in order to fully understand the golf course I need to play it. The fact that it seemed so one-dimensional to me was the reason for my post.

The guy who sits next to me all day long at work called Bayonet home for many years and echoed many of the previous comments. Evidently, the greens are a bit more slippery than they appear.

I'm going to run out and play it, because that is what raters are supposed to do before making an evaluation.

If I like it, I'll be the first one to post a mea culpa, just as I did about the Dunes Course at MPCC.

Gawd dang though, there are an awful lot of uphill forced carries.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2002, 11:25:01 AM »
Having only played Black Horse, I am curious as
to what people think about it versus Bayonette.
I played Black Horse from the back tees last winter after it had been lengthened (to about 6,800 yards, I think) and I thought it was a very stern test of golf.  I also really liked the course, although I am having a hard time (right now) remembering specifically why.

What are the thoughts of those who know both courses very well?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2002, 11:48:28 AM »
Black Horse has much more variety than Bayonet. At the same time it seems much narrower too. It has some quirk and lots of undulation throughout. There is even one hole with a tree right in the middle of the fairway at the dogleg.

I have heard that some pros have gone and put down a 67 on Bayo and in the afternoon fire a smooth 83 on BlackHorse. There are some brutish holes with bind tee shots, sloped greens and some severely elevated greens.

All in all its a course where if your gonna go high, your gonna go real high. But if your gonna go low it won't be that low.

Well worth a visit, at least once, if for no other reason than that I don't believe there are two holes on the course that are in any way similar, save for two par 3's.





« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2002, 03:47:29 PM »
Gib:

I can understand your attitude toward Bayonet as I know the quality of courses that you play. However, you do have to play the shots right to get a good result. Simon Hobday, when winning the Senior School qualifying, confessed to me that it was the toughest four days of golf he had ever played.

I may have mentioned before, that compared to the early seventies the course is a pussy cat. The cypress trees were not trimmed and basically formed a hedgerow on either side of the fairway. I have just written to the USGA to see if they can confirm that half the field in Sectional Qualifying in 70/71 failed to break 80.

Are there a couple of strange holes, yes, but at the curent price I wouldn't mind playing there on a regular basis.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

johnk

Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2002, 04:18:21 PM »
Bob,

I think Gib shoudl also have an additional
advantage in playing Fort Ord - beyond his game.
The course feels a lot like his home course, at least to me.
Maybe Gib would disagree, but simply from a visual
and hill perspective, I think they feel similar.

Does anyone know if McClure had ever played Olympic?
Somehow there has to be some connection...

johnk
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Gib_Papazian

Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2002, 04:19:35 PM »
Bob,

I don't know if it has anything to do with the quality of the courses I play - believe me, my travels take me to some pretty awful tracks.

My point is really that with all the accolades I hear from players about the place, the ARCHITECTURE looked sort of nondescript. . . . . and repetitiously penal.

I can see it is a brutally difficult course and with the rough up, breaking 80 would be a feat. That said, the placement of the hazards struck me as penal and altogether inelegant.

If I am to be slapped by a woman, I'd rather it be an attractive one, that's all.

John,

Please. Olympic Lake is far more wide open than Bayonet, and I can (and do) run the ball into the green on the Lake course on #1,2,3,4,5,6,9,10,11,14.

It does not sound as if you have been there in some time.  


  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »

Bill_Ryzewski

Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2002, 07:04:05 AM »
Gib,

I count only 5 holes at Bayonet that play noticably uphill (1,3,9,10 and 14). I guess you can add 16 if you are coming in from the left. I think it's hard to put a finger on Bayonet's weaknesses, maybe because they're spread out evenly across all design concepts. The sum of it's weaknesses knock it down a notch or two in my book (I used to have it as a solid 6, now I'm thinkng more like 5). I'll defend Bayonet to point but I wouldn't put it in the same class as The Lake Course, not even close.

Regards,
Bill

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2002, 08:27:43 AM »
Gib:

This kills me.  Much of your critique of TODAY'S Bayonet is indeed right on - though you do need to putt those greens, they can be killers.

Oh my, you should have seen it back in the military days... it was plain and simple the most difficult course on this earth.  That was it's reason for being, and in that sense it was beautiful.  It was unfair and not much fun, but dammit I loved it... "Think you're good?  Play Bayonet."  That was a mantra in the college days.

Today's Bayonet, well... it's been softened so much, nearly all the brutishness is gone, though it's always gonna be a tough course.  I can just say knowing your tastes, you would have LOVED the old 12th - it was a severe dl left, hit into a box tee shot - can't go long, short, right or left and have any shot.  Today, that's all gone...

So yeah, I can understand your critiques most definitely.  You just shoulda seen what it once was....

Big sigh.

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_Ryzewski

Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2002, 08:18:04 PM »
Tom,

I played Bayonet in the last of it's Army days until late 1999. The only changes I saw were the softening of the dl's at 11 and 12 (tees moved about 15-20 yards right and some trees removed at the corner on twelve) but the course was lengthed by 200 or 300 yds. Have there been more changes to appease the usual suspects?

Regards,
Bill
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2002, 07:25:44 AM »
Bill:  oh God yes.  The difference from 1999 to today is night and day.  11 and 12 are completely different holes - 12 plays STRAIGHT from the back tee... all the underbrush has been cleared, and trees have been thinned back in a HUGE way.

All of this has occurred since 1999.

You wouldn't recognize the course today.

Most people love it.  I find it really sad.  They've removed this course's "uniqueness" and "raison d'etre" (spelling?).  

It's still a decent day of golf, but these days there's just not much reason for me to choose it over the other great courses in the area.... there used to be, oh yes there did...

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ed_Baker

Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2002, 09:35:18 AM »
Huckster:

Are you telling us that the golf course actually "suffered" after tree removal? "Bunkers in the sky" stuff?

If that's the case then it would validate Gibs' assessment cause the architecture is on the ground, no?

I never got near the course in '72 when I was undergoing "re-entry to society" debriefing, they pretty much kept us locked up ::) Like we couldn't get out if we wanted too! ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2002, 09:47:27 AM »
Ed - I'd hate to try and lock you up ANYWHERE, ANYHOW, given your training... then or now!   ;)

This golf course is an exception to general rules.  Just remember it was SO FREAKIN' HARD, such a BITCH-SLAP YOU BACK TO YOUR MAMA MANLY TEST OF GOLF, that softening it has ruined it, in my opinion.  And what made it the test it used to be was indeed the trees.  This course was claustrophobically tight, and they left all the underbrush as is... add to that some very wacky sharp doglegs and this course was the greatest test of driving on this earth.  See, it's quite long from the waybacks also.  So you either drive it long and straight or hello triple digits.  It broke every architectural rule, it was indeed long, hemmed in, repetitious to a big extent (nearly every dogleg is right to left), "unfair" to the bejeesus... But god help me I loved it so.  It broke my general rule of "fun first", but dammit, I didn't go there for "fun", I went there to see how my game stood.  The old Bayonet exposed weaknesses with brutal clarity.  You knew that going in, that was its intent (kinda like today's aerial of the day) and thus it was damn fun, every time, no matter how bad it kicked your ass.

So today, all the trees have been cut back drastically, the underbrush is gone, many holes have been straightened, and what's left?  Gib has it assessed sadly correctly up above.

And thus the charm is gone,  the reason for playing it is gone, and it bums me out tremendously.

I have made this rant many times before.  My friends are tired of hearing it.  But look at it this way - what if some lunatic flattened your greens at CRCC in the name of "playability" and "fairness"??  I'd have to guess you'd be as bummed as I am here, no, even besides the fact that such an act to that Ross gem would merit criminal prosecution??

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:07 PM by -1 »

Ed_Baker

Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2002, 09:54:53 AM »
They would get a charge of C-4 in the proctologists realm.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

THuckaby2

Re: Fort Ord - Bayonet. I don't get it.
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2002, 10:34:24 AM »
As I would expect!   ;D

TH
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »