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John Shimp

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Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2008, 12:43:27 PM »
Ed,
Interesting response on Yeamans vs. Grandfather.  I've played YH a lot and love the place and the green complexes.  There I have intended to putt very well and feel the speed and break well.  Those greens are large and have big, smooth contours in general with the exception of engineered features (eg. bathtub/horseshoe on the short).  I have not had as much grain issue there on that champion bermuda (I have played a good bit on tif eagle which is super grainy in comparison) as you mention. 

I hear you on making putts at GGCC due to the pureness of the putting surfaces.  I just had a really difficult 40 putt day due to misreads in direction and speed and was confounded a lot.  Didn't lose a ball though as a small consolation prized.  We should putt for each other if we ever play together on either course!

John Shimp

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Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2008, 12:45:51 PM »
To Adam Clayman's question of how the answers might change if I'd asked most interesting instead of hardest, my answer would be not much.  Of the ones I've played that folks have discussed, I would rank these green complexes as among the best.

Other views?

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2008, 01:04:17 PM »
I know I'm biased but the green complexes at Royal Cinque Ports are very interesting and require some deft short game touches to save par around the greens. Certainly not the toughest - which usually revolves around speed - but very sporty especially #1, 3, 4, 6, 12, 14, 16 and 17. 
Cave Nil Vino

Tom Huckaby

Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2008, 01:10:13 PM »
To Adam Clayman's question of how the answers might change if I'd asked most interesting instead of hardest, my answer would be not much.  Of the ones I've played that folks have discussed, I would rank these green complexes as among the best.

Other views?

Hmmmmm.... Adam raises a great question, as he so often does.

And I think in general I'd agree with John.  How can greens and surrounds be the most interesting if they are also not among the most difficult?  Isn't what makes them interesting their difficulty, at least for the most part?

Of course there would be an exception to this, though:  greens that are so absurdly fast and contoured as to ratchet up the difficulty to the max, to a level of absurdity.  Those would be the most difficult, but would be interesting only to masochists.

I can think of some examples... but in each case, all one has to do is ratchet down the speed a little and they work both as most difficult and most interesting.

Note also:  I can think of greens that at least at first glance do not appear to be the most difficult, but are certainly among the most interesting.  But wouldn't these be foolers, where the difficulty becomes apparent only after experience?  I'm thinking of slowish but highly contoured greens.... Hard to say those aren't also among the most difficult, even at slowish speed.  And they certainly are interesting.

TH

Tom Huckaby

Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2008, 01:17:43 PM »
I've only 8-putted at one place.

Let's hope so.
But wouldn't that be an example of the "absurd" situation I described above?  So sure, that green that day sure was difficult.  But would you call it among the most "interesting?"

I know you weren't addressing this - you just gave a pretty perfect example.

BTW, you should see said green how it is now.  Good lord given the wrong pin and too fast green speed you might 15 putt.  But thankfully you're a better putter now, thanks to the placebo that that gay-rod has provided for you; but more importantly, said course also seems to have gotten the word that a little slower is a little more fun and a lot less absurd.

TH
« Last Edit: September 05, 2008, 01:20:10 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Stan Dodd

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Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #30 on: September 05, 2008, 02:06:10 PM »
I agree with David, Royal Dornoch will expose and humilate you for your short game flaws without being silly.  Miss the green on the Par 3's and you have your work cut out for you.  Hit  greens in the wrong spots and the possibility of 3 putting is always there.

Deucie Bies

Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2008, 02:27:46 PM »
Another vote for Oakmont and Oakland Hills.  Lost Dunes definitely has some difficult greens too.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2008, 02:47:32 PM »
Tom, you are right to point out there is a difference in the definition of what constitutes difficult. Acceptable difficulty, to me, is the compelling aspect. I find it lies in reading the confluence of slopes, because the architect keenly molded, and often disguised some of them. Perry Maxwell and Alister Mackenzie would easily qualify as two of the best. Rustic Canyon has wonderfully deceptive but still readable, greens. Believe it or not, RTJ and Jr. both have made some great greens. Fazio's at SC were no slouch, either. I'm sure the list could go on and until we define great, or greatest and then find someone who has played them all. ;)
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tom Huckaby

Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2008, 02:50:26 PM »
Well said, Adam.  And of course we have Matt Ward for that last part.

 ;D

tlavin

Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2008, 02:55:56 PM »
The three toughest on me would be Prairie Dunes, Lost Dunes and Olympic Club.

Chip Gaskins

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Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2008, 07:18:20 PM »
Oakmont and Augusta.

Art Roselle

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Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2008, 07:35:37 PM »
I have heard a surprising number of people mention the Broadmoor in this type of discussion, including the guys from the Champions Tour this summer.  I do not remember it well enough to have a strong opinion, but I have at least three friends who have said that the greens are the most difficult to putt that they have ever played.  It is not due to extreme speeds or undulation, like Oakmont or Augusta, but the pervasive slope of the Rockies is impossible to figure out.  Seemingly straight putts will break severely and many putts will appear to break uphill.  Interested in any comments for or against this nominee.

David Stamm

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Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2008, 07:37:13 PM »
I've always thought Pasatiempo's were very difficult (and great!).
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Craig Sweet

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Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2008, 07:55:50 PM »
Rock Creek....when it's mid summer and playing firm and fast, those greens will be dangerous!

Patrick Boyd

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Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2008, 12:07:41 AM »
Lookout Mountain's greens are freakish......Raynor's nutty internal contouring rolling around 12-13 is downright entertaining.  The most innocuous looking putt can make your heart race.








Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2008, 08:42:21 AM »
Craig:

I really don't expect Rock Creek's greens to be as hard around the greens as the other courses listed here.  If it is, I've miscalculated.  But I guess we'll find out the end of next week!!

Scott Szabo

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Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2008, 10:16:29 AM »
I've got to throw out Ballyneal, because the greens and surrounds still confuse me to this day.  I've never played a course on a regular basis that I lose so many strokes on and around the greens as Ballyneal.  They may also be the most interesting surfaces that I've had the pleasure to set foot on as well.
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

David_Madison

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Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2008, 10:19:10 AM »
Alpine's greens are terrifying at peak speed. Also, the first few holes running along the ridge at Baltusrol's Upper had greens that went exactly opposite the way they looked.

Andy Troeger

Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2008, 11:00:25 AM »
Crystal Downs is the hardest and most visually intimidating for a first-timer of the ones I've seen.

The Broadmoor's might be the most confusing, but I think would be easier than CD once you played them enough times to learn the different slopes. I found the greens at Red Sky Ranch to be very difficult to figure out the first time too because of a similar mountain effect.

Kinsgley and Ballyneal are both very fun and challenging, but not as visually intimidating as CD because of the speed differential. Black Mesa would qualify here.

Craig Sweet

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Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2008, 12:08:54 PM »
Tom, we have had lots of rain this week and things are cooling down...I would expect the course to play a bit long and the greens to be a tad slow...

However, next summer when the heat is on and the winds are blowing...I can see some interesting green complexes really coming alive over there...starting with the 2nd hole and not easing up...

rchesnut

Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2008, 11:41:17 PM »
Oakmont.  40+ putts there the day I played it.  Without the caddie, it could have hit 50.   

Matthew Hunt

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Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2008, 07:34:46 AM »
Lisburn Golf Club, it feels like your putts will spin back at you. ;)

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Hardest Courses in the World on and around the putting surface
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2008, 08:20:22 AM »
In Australia = The National  - by fair margin in my eyes - though NSW would be right up there.

Overseas = Royal Dornoch and Birkdale were tough for recovery shots