What is wrong with unpinnable locations on greens?

[Kalen Braley]

Pajaro were the most fearsome greens I played all weekend long.  Many of the greens would not accept a shot that landed on it if you wanted to stay on it.  The bump and run game was a neccessity.

Even simple chip that landed only a few feet on to the surface would often run 15-20 past the hole. It was fun stuff!!

[Jason Connor]

I think it's fine that some areas are unpinnable.

The problem becomes when so many areas are unpinnable that you end up with a very small area that is pinnable.  That's when it gets boring because the green plays the same every day.

[Tom Huckaby]

I think it's fine that some areas are unpinnable.

The problem becomes when so many areas are unpinnable that you end up with a very small area that is pinnable.  That's when it gets boring because the green plays the same every day.

Jason:  amen, brother.  You just perfectly worded part of my main point here, and described a lot of Pasatiempo, how it used to be and in some places and at some times still is.

TH

[Kyle Harris]

I agree John, I would say you do need places to ove the hole around...my biggest pet peeve with the argument about green speeds / contour / pinnable spots is the notion that a player should be able to reasonably putt the ball to within close range of the hole any time they are on the green...I wholeheartedly disagree with that premise.

 

[Sean_A]

There is nothing wrong with unpinnable locations on greens.  This is the premise for fallaway parts of greens.  However, by the same token, it is pointless to have a fallaway part of the green if the pin can't be placed close to it to encourage proper positional play at least sometimes.  I have no problem with a guy putting off the green because he is out of position.  Sometimes its better to be off the green chipping then on it putting - its part of positional play.  Having said that, I wouldn't want a steady diet of this stuff for two reasons.  First, I am not good enough to keep the ball in the right position all that often so I don't want to be asked this question 10 times in a round.  Second, too much of this stuff slows the game down.   

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

You miss the point, again.

Have you ever seen an uphill putt at Augusta roll back to the player's feet simply due to gravity?  I haven't.  And it's not their skill - which is obviously superior - it's that there just obviously isn't as much grade as existed at the old #11 at Pasatiempo.  

It is common anytime the pin is on the right side of 16, front or back.  I'm sorry I did not pay attention to the back of 11 on my one play, as you recall, I simply played my approach below the hole.

I would love to meet the poster on GCA who is bored with a course because of overly fast greens that result in the same pin position day after day.  Even with Huck by the time he ever reached the 11th green the boredom of the pin position was the least of his problems.  This is simply another issue created by non-playing busy bodies.

[Sean_A]

Huck,

When it comes to green contours and speed, which is the bigger problem.  Too much speed for the contour or too many players without the talent to hit the shot?  I use ANGC as proof that almost any contour and speed combination is acceptable with enough talent at your disposal.

You miss the point, again.

Have you ever seen an uphill putt at Augusta roll back to the player's feet simply due to gravity?  I haven't.  And it's not their skill - which is obviously superior - it's that there just obviously isn't as much grade as existed at the old #11 at Pasatiempo. 

When greens get such that an uphill putt won't stay within 3 or 4 feet but rather rolls back to one's feet when missed, that to me shows little reward for skill, and is not what golf ought to be.

TH

AwsHuckster

If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that putts don't roll back down to players on 16 at Augusta when putting up the hill from the front left part of the green.  I am sure I have seen guys do this and I think I saw it once this year.  I am approaching 45 years of age, so perhaps my memory isn't what it used to be, but I could have sworn....

Ciao

[Scott Witter]

I have always believed that Unpinnable positions are those essential features built within a PS that result in better Pinnable positions. 

For years and years designers have used them wisely and every time I set foot on older greens and the better greens of the present, I see excellent/fun PS's largely because they are set-up by unpinnable areas where players are asked and need to use them to either feed their ball to the pin or use them as backstops, roll-overs, slides, etc.  Heck we see unpinnable areas all the time on TV, ridges leading out of bunkers, tongues, swales, false fronts, etc.  Though they are not meant, nor ever were in many cases to be pinnable, they are critical to interesting and fun play and even strategy quite often.

Can't believe I am saying this (P. Pallotta will love this one ) but it is also very similar to music and art once again.  Much of both are used and depending on the skill of the artist, to guide your ears and eyes to the important points, be it throught the use of light, color or texture in art or rhythms, transitional progressions and melodies in music...it binds together the key elements the artist/architect is trying to communicate through mystery, discovery and frankly self-awareness.

Unpinnable areas are truly some of the best spice in green design.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I just can't grasp why you people constantly whine about unpinnable locations.  How many hole postions do you need?

From the supers perspective, it usually takes 21 days for the turf in the 3' radius around the cup location to recover fully, on average.  In peak growth season, maybe less.  Thus, they would say you need 21 cup locations on a busy 7 day per week pubic course. 

At clubs, I have seen greens look good with as little as 10 cup positions (five general areas, with at least two pins each)

[Tom Huckaby]

JK/Sean:

I have not seen that ever occur on 16 Augusta - that is, a putt go up the top, stop, and then roll back just due to gravity.  If that does occur, then that is what I am talking about.  But I sincerely doubt they'd allow that kind of goofy-golf at the Masters, given it involves next to no skill and would cause rounds to take even longer than they already do.  Remember I am talking about a putt that will NEVER stop anywhere near the hole. Yes, I have seen the back pins they tend to use on days other than Sunday.

And JK, you missed all of the "fun" of the old 11 green, being so laser-focused and self-centered.     As for me, oh yes, the least of my problems were showing you that green - I was far too worried about sending you into depression kicking your ass so badly, your two wonderful birdies being surrounded by a card filled with more X's than a Mulder/Scully TV show.

 

I will say this though:  once again you miss the point re lack of pin positions.  It's really not that one gets bored playing the same one over and over again - as you saw, one could never really be bored playing 11 Pasa no matter where the pin is - it's more that so much of the green gets wasted, and especially for those who embrace absurdity, well, it would be impossible not to look at the 4/5 of the green that is never used and wish it could be.  How can a green be all that fun when 4/5 of it is never used?  When all putts are necessarily flat?

So JK, how about answering my question this time:  wouldn't you enjoy playing to a back pin at #11 Pasa?

As it was, you really couldn't.  They nearly never put it there, for reasons already stated.

As it is now, well... just wait till you see the pin John V can give the US Open qualifiers.

TH

[John Kavanaugh]

Huck,

Editing a dilusion does not make it reality.