350 to 390

[BVince]

What is the best 350 to 390 yard par 4 hole that you have ever seen or played and why?  What are some of the features that make the hole challenging and interesting?

My favorite is:

Cypress Point 17th (gold tees 389) - The tee shot is both intimidating and demanding.  Although a driver is not necessary, placement is everything to have the desired approach into the green.  The wind plays a huge factor and with a right to left wind it can force a player to flirt with the ocean coastline.  The shot into the green is challenging.  It has all the aspects of one of the finest holes in the world. 

What is yours?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Whew. I thought this was going to be another one of those ranking threads......

[Paul Jones]

Bryon,

Just curious...  Why did you specify a specific yardage range and not just a short par 4?

[BVince]

Just a short par 4 may include a drivable par 4....I wanted to specify 350-390 to avoid the drivable angle of this thread.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

The first hole that came to mind for me was #12 at The Honors Course - nothing short of fantastic.

[Paul Jones]

1st at Garden City - I am pretty sure it is less than 390.

[Carl Nichols]

I played it recently so I'm probably ranking it too highly, but I thought the first hole at Cuscowilla (380 yards) might be the best opening hole I've played (except perhaps #1 at Merion).  The landing area is quite wide and has TONS of room right, which is nice for the first tee shot of the day -- no narrow landing area for your first swing, so you can get off the first tee relatively easily.  But because there's high grass and bunkers on the left, there's a tendency to go right, but if you don't challenge the left side, you have a bad angle to an elevated and not very deep green with a bunker in the right front.   Miss the green a little long, and you're left trying to figure out what kind of pitch to hit, especially if the pin is back right. 

Bottom line:  generous landing area is perfect for a first tee, but better tee shots that challenge the trouble are rewarded with a far better angle to a tough and interesting green.

[Brad Tufts]

Good question, I was talking with someone the other day about how there was a lack of interesting holes from 375-415....Doak is well-known as saying #4 at Myopia is the best hole of its length in the US if not the world.  I'm not sure of my answer yet, but that is a very good candidate.

Slight dogleg left around a deep natural (and going off-property) wetlands, and a wild back-to-front and twisting hard back right to front left.  Like taking a frisbee and pulling one edge down sharply while twisting...

[Andrew Summerell]

1st at Garden City - I am pretty sure it is less than 390.

It's been a while since I played there, but from memory, it's closer to 300 yards & I'm sure it wasn't 350y. In saying that, it is one of the best starting holes I've played.

My nomination for favourite 350-390 would be the 14th at New South Wales Golf Club. It would probably be my favourite bunkerless par 4 as well.

[Tom_Doak]

Brad:

I didn't realize I was well-known for saying that -- perhaps in the 100 miles around Myopia!  It was not one of the holes I was thinking about when I started reading this thread ... but I guess I'd better not contradict myself.

I guess the sad thing is that holes under 350 yards must now all be placed in the "driveable" category.  Crystal Downs has three great short 4's where nobody ever used to think about hitting driver -- the seventh at 335 yards, the fifteenth at 325, and the seventeenth at 311.  You are welcome to hit driver at all of them when you come to play there with me, Bryon -- ESPECIALLY if we are playing for money. 

[Mark_F]

The third at Macrihanish.  It's an inspiring setting.  A not unforgiving blind drive, great fairway movement, you are hitting toward the ocean, and the green provides some puzzle as to the best way to get the ball close to the flag.

The seventh at Cruden Bay is also pretty good.  The drive is blind again, and a great green setting up through some dunes, where you think right may be the safe miss, which it isn't.

[Phil McDade]

Mark:

The 3rd at Marchrihanish -- Islay -- is very good (376 tips, 356 daily tees), but I actually prefer the 5th there (Punch Bowl, 385 tips, 360 daily tees), a real roller-coaster fairway that doglegs left to a green with significant contours, a steep false front, a framing sand dune left and drop-offs right. An outstanding hole, in my view the best at Machrihanish.

On the domestic side, I'd highlight the 7th at West Bend CC, a low-key club in Wisconsin that features a terrific front nine designed and built by Langford and Moreau. It plays to 361 tips, 349 blues, and 322 whites, but no one tries to drive the green here, because the approach is steeply uphill and the hole doglegs left around a forest. Details and some pics on this recent thread; GCA poster Mike McGuire is a member here and says its the favorite hole of the members.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,32617.0.html

[Patrick Glynn]

Any par 4 sub-350 yards nowadays is "driveable" though it may not be the best play! - Crazy.

I would nominate the 2nd at Pacific Dunes, plays 368 from the Blacks. Every time I step up on that tee I cant seem to commit to a definite line. The natural slope of the fairway right to left just catches your eye until all you can see is the 2 bunkers staring you in the face. Try and go right of the cross-bunker & you will surely visit the gorse between the 2/16 fairways. I have only played this hole into the Summer Wind & I just loved it.  Green is really cool, it was probably my first that I ever went "Wow - this is really neat to play on!" The false front short left is really accentuated in the wind blowing with the slope.

A good test of a hole is if you can remember playing it vividly, without drudging up old score cards or sifting through your grey matter. I can still recall one of my first time playing 2, hit a snipe short & left of the bunker & just hacked back into play some 30 yards short left. Playing matchplay against a friend how was on the back edge in 2 - in a "commanding" position - and I ended up sinking a 4' for a 5 and a win! 

[Jeff Doerr]

From the Pasa thread...

I think number 16 at Pasatiempo has to be in the mix.

This is my favorite length of par 4 and the one I play most often. I rarely play tips and usually find myself in the 6200 to 6700 range as a 9 handicap. This distance lets me really think through my teeshot and try to plan the upcoming approach. Do I want (or dare) a wedge in, or should I play for a mid to longer iron in? How am I hitting it today? What are the greens like? Where's the flag? Do I want to be on one side of the fairway or the other? What do I avoid at all costs, and what could I flirt with?

On the 425+ hole I'm just thinking - hit it solid, stay out of any gunk and give yourself a chance to get it somewhere on the green.

[David Stamm]

16th at Pasatiempo

11th at Pasatiempo

3rd at LACC

4th at Spyglass

[Jim_Kennedy]

The 18th at wyantenuck CC in Gt. Barrington, Ma. is a v.g. hole that fits into the required yardage window.

There are two bunkers cutting diagonally into the fairway on the right and a boomerang shaped bunker on the left side (this one is between the 12th and 18 fairways) that are about  200 yd. carries to clear. Not a big problem for a substantial number of players nowadays, but if you are trying to lay something up with a fade(rightie) and cross yourself up, you can find the one on the left side rather easily. 
The raised green has three sections, a high middle tier and lower ones on each side and it's about 30 yds. deep and 35 yds wide. There are bunkers guarding each tier, but there is a 15 yd wide opening in front. If you find yourself in one of these 'guardians' you better hope the cup is cut on the same tier. It's one of the few times that short-siding yourself is good.


fun hole

[BVince]

Tom,

Any occasion to play a round of golf with you would be great fun...even if I was driving it erratically.  I have friends that can bomb it so long and straight that it takes a hole with serious hazards or challenging lines to force them to play conventially. 

Jeff and David,

The 16th at Pasa is a great hole.  I personally favor the 11th more because I believe there is more strategy off the tee shot.  Both are great holes.


Additionally, I have been thinking that 16 at Bandon Dunes is a great hole in this category.  It is a bit flashy, but great options and interesting challenges.

[Gerry B]

off the top of my head here are a few:

11 at shoreacres
17 at ngla
11 at merion
4 at myopia - right around 390 yds
10 at yale from 2nd to back tees
2 at pine valley
17 at Cypress Point
6 at olympia fields south and 12 on the north is pretty great as well
11 at The National in Toronto

[Greg Tallman]

#15 at Grandfather G&CC (Linville, NC)
#14 at Cabo del Sol - Ocean
#14 Muirfeild Village (? ydg)

[Cory Brown]

It does seem sad that it was stated that a par 4 in that yardage range is a short par 4.  I certainly do not consider 390 a short hole.
I'm having a little trouble coming up with expamples of holes that are great due to this yardage.  The majority of par 4's on course should be in this range in my mind.
On the whole I believe that the short somewhat driveable par 4 is the best kind, however they must be used sparingly.  The mid range are the most common, but also have by far the most variety.  I love having the option of several different clubs off the tee.  If you look at most of the great long par 4's, it is not alway their strategy that people love, often it is their abusive nature.

[Matt Bosela]

My first thought was this hole:



The fantastic uphill 2nd at Oakmont, with cavernous bunkers to the right, the dreaded ditch on the left and a centerline bunker about 40 yards from the green.

You can stand on the tee and seriously justify hitting anything from a driver down to a 5-iron.

This is to say nothing of the fantastic green complex that slopes severely from back to front and the great bunker that surrounds it.

Just tremendous.

However, it falls just short of your 350 yard minimum by 10 measly yards.  I'd still nominate it though.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Man, this is a tough category.

Gerry B, good call on Yale 10.  But the charm of that green in a way points out a potential flaw in this exercise: by specifying the length isn't the implication that we're judging more the through-the-green part?

That nit aside, I'll throw out:
Woking 4
New South Wales 14
5 Alwoodley
3 Royal Melbourne West

I would probably go with 3 RMW as my favorite. I can't imagine exhausting the possibilities.  How many holes in the world can you hit your very best drive and wonder if you should have hit driver?  The diagonal swale, the fallaway cant of the green, the bunker left, the angle of the green: each of these can play a significant role in the play to and on the green.



Mark

[John Kirk]

I will nominate #12 at Ballyneal, 380 yards from the back.

[Mark_F]

Phil:

Yes, Macrihanish five is a super hole - for some stupid reason I thought the yardage in question was 350 to 380, and couldn't quite fit it in...

John:

Wonderful photo.

[John Kirk]

Thanks, Mark.  Courtesy of official course photographer Dick Durrance II.