What are the architectural benefits of ego driven expensive golf?

[John Kavanaugh]

Besides the obvious of fast greens, fast rounds, prime locations, great conditioning and heavy pour drinks...What drives this segment of the industry?

[jeffwarne]

Big lockers

[Jason Connor]

It has resulted in more cape holes.

[John Kavanaugh]

I like seeing a course in a USGA set up and having the resources to make changes for the better. 

[John Kavanaugh]

The ability to remove trees at a moments notice.  I am not sure the average egoless golfer understands the expense of tree removal.

[Adam Clayman]

How about the long term expense of planting trees?
I'm sure the ego filled wealthy golfer doesn't understand that long term cost, either.

[John Kavanaugh]

How about the long term expense of planting trees?
I'm sure the ego filled wealthy golfer doesn't understand that long term cost, either.

Pebble replacing the tree on 18 is a perfect example.  If ego golf allows the use of strategic trees that is a very good thing.

[Peter Pallotta]

The sense of well-being, of having arrived, of belonging to the privileged realm of the select few, the stamp of success, the mark of excellence, the clarion call of specialness, a way to keep score, to think highly of oneself, to bask in the glory of being served, to revel in the range of un-essential luxuries that money can buy and buying just because, a drug, an opiate, an office, a place to lie and be lied to and pretend. Ego drives ego driven golf, and since nothing can ever satisfy ego, that segment will always be a healthy one.

Peter

[Sean_A]

The sense of well-being, of having arrived, of belonging to the privileged realm of the select few, the stamp of success, the mark of excellence, the clarion call of specialness, a way to keep score, to think highly of oneself, to bask in the glory of being served, to revel in the range of un-essential luxuries that money can buy and buying just because, a drug, an opiate, an office, a place to lie and be lied to and pretend. Ego drives ego driven golf, and since nothing can ever satisfy ego, that segment will always be a healthy one.

Peter

Peter

Your post reminds me of a very good friend of mine.  We were hanging about in Rome some years ago when he got a call.  After hanging up (I guess he didn't really hang the phone - he put it in his pocket!) he smugly announced that he had arrived.  I didn't respond (as I was probably checking out the women).  Trying to push his self importance, my mate said that it was his Tailor calling from Hong Kong asking if he wanted to pick up his new suits back in London or have them sent to Italy.  My comment was "yep, but yer interior lining is hanging out the back of yer jacket."  All I heard in response was a heavy sigh.


JakaB

I don't have any answers to your question.

Ciao

[Phil McDade]

John:

Herb Kohler and Pete Dye took a run-down, polluted, vacant old military site and turned it into Whistling Straits (and the Irish Course), which some here don't like, but is a lot better than what was there before. Kohler likes to tell the joke that he gave Dye on unlimited budget to build WS and Dye promptly exceeded it.

[Adam Clayman]

Pebble replacing the tree on 18 is a perfect example.  If ego golf allows the use of strategic trees that is a very good thing.

JB, If you think they understand a strategic tree at Pebble, you have quite the imagination.
The tree was replaced because it holds the fixture and ballast for the light that illuminates the green at night.

[John Kavanaugh]

So, how many of the top ten privates are ego driven memberships?

[cary lichtenstein]

The sense of well-being, of having arrived, of belonging to the privileged realm of the select few, the stamp of success, the mark of excellence, the clarion call of specialness, a way to keep score, to think highly of oneself, to bask in the glory of being served, to revel in the range of un-essential luxuries that money can buy and buying just because, a drug, an opiate, an office, a place to lie and be lied to and pretend. Ego drives ego driven golf, and since nothing can ever satisfy ego, that segment will always be a healthy one.

Peter

I was having dinner at a table for 10 at one of these "ego driven courses", Bette and I were by far the poorest ones, and we remained quiet while the conversation was about the problems with having 3 homes, forgetting where each piece of clothes were, the scheduling of the houses, the conflicts between the husband and wife regarding the use of the plane at the same time to different destinations, frankly, it was so obnoxious..

[John Burzynski]

The sense of well-being, of having arrived, of belonging to the privileged realm of the select few, the stamp of success, the mark of excellence, the clarion call of specialness, a way to keep score, to think highly of oneself, to bask in the glory of being served, to revel in the range of un-essential luxuries that money can buy and buying just because, a drug, an opiate, an office, a place to lie and be lied to and pretend. Ego drives ego driven golf, and since nothing can ever satisfy ego, that segment will always be a healthy one.

Peter

I was having dinner at a table for 10 at one of these "ego driven courses", Bette and I were by far the poorest ones, and we remained quiet while the conversation was about the problems with having 3 homes, forgetting where each piece of clothes were, the scheduling of the houses, the conflicts between the husband and wife regarding the use of the plane at the same time to different destinations, frankly, it was so obnoxious..

I was trying to think of a way to put this, but I can't state it any better.

Ah, beware of snobbery; it is the unwelcome recognition of one's own past failings. --Cary Grant

[John Kavanaugh]

Is Cypress Point an ego driven course by your standards.  Shinney, National, Merion?  I personally do not believe ego plays any part in their memberships.  I doubt there is an ego driven membership in any top 100.  My opinion is that this whole ego thing is created by golfers with low self esteem and does not exist.

[Kalen Braley]

I don't see a huge difference in the human behavoirs from one group to another be it ANGC or your local muni.

Most everyone runs in a pack they are most comfortable with.  They all tease and prod each other.  There is usually a couple of alpha dogs in the group. They all talk about current events.  They all have a few drinks and laughs together.  They all put on thier pants one leg at a time.  Sure there are huge differences in the toys that can or can't be bought, but the basic fundamental human interchange is the same.

So to answer your question John, I don't see the difference.  Small munis or exlcusive clubs both get many things right and wrong from an architectual perspective.

[Dan Herrmann]

John,
I doubt that the top 10's are where egos are.  I've been out to several of the top 10's as a guest, and found them to be so confident of their place that they didn't need to put on airs.  In fact, I dare say that they were a bit laid back, which was really wonderful.

This also applies to the green jackets with whom I spoke at Augusta during a practice round.  Very unassuming folks who were proud but not crazy.

Another story - I'm watching the US Amateur at Merion a few years ago.  I'm up near 16 green and stike up a conversation with a voulenteer that happened to be a member of Merion AND Oakmont.  Absolutely zero pretense of ego from him and we had great 5 minute discussion about the architecture of the quarry hole and the tree removal program at Oakmont.

Honestly, I've actually seen a lot more ego at some CCFADs.  Needless to say, the CCFAD architecture wasn't exactly up to top 10 level.  I apologize to Matt Ward for this, but I found the folks playing Ballyowen (a CCFAD in Northern NJ) the day I played to be over-the-top egocentric.

[John Kirk]

In my estimation, the "top ten privates", such as Cypress, Merion, and Shinnecock, are not particularly expensive, over the top course designs.  They are simply great courses in great locations that were eventually able to attract the highest quality people as members.  It seems self-centered and flamboyant behavior would be highly discouraged.

I recently had a chat with a caddie who said he left a crosstown club because he got tired of hearing the members talking about all their money and stuff, and how great their course was.  I concur.

In this context, when we refer to ego, it seems that we are referring to false pride and attention seeking behavior.  Real pride does not need an audience.  I'm working on it.

[tlavin]

The architect benefits by getting paid more money, hopefully!

[John Kavanaugh]

In this context, when we refer to ego, it seems that we are referring to false pride and attention seeking behavior.  Real pride does not need an audience.  I'm working on it.

I agree and call for the end of the movement that claims the desire for fast greens and great conditioning is ego driven.  

btw.  My argument is not helped by a volunteer who tells every passerby that he is both a member of Merion and Oakmont.  I can only hope he went to Cornell to boot.