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Tom MacWood (Guest)

Royal County Down
« on: July 25, 2002, 11:12:57 AM »
I was watching the Senior Open and was wondering who deserves credit for this great links -- the bunkering is out of this world. What are the chances of the Open ever being played at Newcastle?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2002, 11:52:27 AM »
Tom

The club history is quite detailed; I'll try and summarise it sometime.  I had a quick glance researching Colt's work and I do know that he built the 4th, repositioned the 8th green and added central/cross bunkers; the 9th was originally a blind par 3 and here Colt pushed the green way back to make the current epic par4.  He also repositioned the 11th and 18th greens.  Don't know about the other architects.

The view cresting the 9th fairway, still has to be the best view in golf!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2002, 11:53:19 AM »
Tom MacW:

As you'll see in C&W there's a whole laundry list of architectural attribution on RCD starting with Old Tom.

I met the man who not long ago found a routing of the course in a tube somewhere apparently forgotten about. It now hangs in the clubhouse complete with treated window panes so as not to adversely effect it.

The original (Old Tom) routing (at least the first or first few holes) is not the same as now however.

Relatively recently the club decided to go for it and sprung for a really really good super and now the course is as good as I've ever seen anywhere---absolutely dead solid perfect "maintenance meld" for what it is.

The bunkering is some of the most rugged I've seen in my life and it never gets out of a player's mind all day! If you get in some of them the first order of business is to get out any way you can!

RCD is without question in my top five favorite courses in the world--maybe higher.

#18 was redone (redesigned bunker placements) recently and some have criticized the hole but I think it's great--very  intense from tee to green and approaching that green even from a relatively short distance in wind can be extremely tricky business.

The front nine of that course is almost unequaled anywhere for diverse and quality holes and they are so good and so diverse many people have a different favorite.

I still can't decide which one I like best but I think it would be #7!! It's a semi to mostly blind ridge running, wind clobbered short par 3 and basically it's almost not possible for a short par 3 to get any better than that one!

How many options do you have on a short par 3 anyway? Well, you have a ton of them on that hole, all kinds of club selections, shot shapes, trajectories etc all resulting in a spectrum from sublime to good, bad, ugly, uglier to ridiculous. And it apparently has a ton of sophisticated local knowledge to boot.

Ran likes the much longer par 3 #4 and that's a helluva hole too. Every hole there's excellent except #17 gets rapped all the time. The first half of it is a bit odd but the green and green-end definitely stands up there with the rest of the golf course.

One other thing about RCD! That photograph from the course with the backdrop of the Mountains of Mourn (Slieve Donnard & the hotel steeple) is one of the most photographed golf related shots in the world!

I love that course and it will always be burned in my memory anyway since the first day there we walked off the 18th green and into the pro shop and on TV was that first jet flying straight into the first Twin Tower from the west!

We didn't really think we would but the next day we went out and played the course again in the wind, rain and sun! I'll never regret that--it was one of the best things that could be done under the circumstances and the golf course itself had a WHOLE lot to do with that!

RCD is definitely one of the greats of the world!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

guest

Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2002, 12:17:47 PM »
As to Tom's other question regarding the chances of RCD ever hosting the Open-- I believe I heard heard/saw last night that ticket sales for the Senior British Open were being limited to 5,000 per day! :o   I'd venture a guess that there were 5,000 people looking for Gary Evans' ball at #17 at Muirfield last Sunday! Nope, don't think we'll be seeing an Open any time soon at my favorite, Royal County Down.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2002, 01:22:53 PM »
Tom-
Royal County Down is truly one of the great links courses. It is a little unfortunate that holes #16, #17 & #18 get most of the air time on TV, as these holes are probably the least characteristic of the entire course. The front 9 at RCD could very well be the best opening 9 on any course in the world.
My guess is that if/when the political situation in Northern Ireland ever normalizes and the British Open is next played there, it will probably first be held at Royal Portrush, where they played the Open in 1951.  They have also played several Senior Opens there in recent years. RCD is a little too isolated (like Royal Dornoch) to have the facilities to host an Open. Portrush, while hardly in a metropolis, has more resources and is not as isolated geographically. If you ever have a chance to play golf in Northern Ireland, be sure to go!      
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Johnny B

Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2002, 03:44:33 PM »
Hi, Greetings to all who love Co Down from Northern Ireland.  I had the pleasure of playing a practice round yesterday on the eve of the Seniors Open - unfortunately I did not quite make it into the event but was an alternate but never really had a chance of getting in as there was no chance that anyone would not turn up.  There is still a little mystery as to the Architects involved except that it is almost definite that Tom Morris and Harry Colt played a significant part. There would not be the infrastructure in the surrounding area to host a British Open at Co Down, and the members would not really want one.  Royal Portrush is a definite possibility but unlikely for quite a few years.  However the British Amateur was a significant success a few years ago and I think the club would be very keen to host the Walker Cup in the not too distant future.
The course is as wonderful as ever although not quite as firm as usual as we have had very wet weather over the last few months.  The greens are very fast and the wind blew this afternoon making it interesting.  The comments about 16, 17 and 18 are valid, although in playing them they are very good and interesting holes but lack the absolute star quality of others on the course  (3,4,5,6,7,8,9,13 in particular).  Anyone watching on TV should study the 18th and comment on the changes - almost all the bunkers on the right hand side are new - part of a few changes by Donald Steel a couple of years ago.  I will be at the course over the next 3 days and will happily post any significant comments/course noteworthy incidents.  It seems so far that Gary Player has not really been missed!

Johnny Browne
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2002, 05:17:22 PM »
Johnny

Has the alternative 16th green been built yet?

I think it's a super driveable par 4.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Turner

Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2002, 05:19:32 PM »
I wonder if the 9s could be swapped for a major tournament?  Par 3 start might not be ideal for some, but Lytham copes OK.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Thomas_Brown

Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2002, 11:17:33 PM »
I share in the praise for RCD.
I'm probably a bit of a heretic, but 16 is just a long par 3 by today's standards off the tee.

On the other side of the coin, I usually play 9 as a par 5(because I'm in the rough off the tee).

Tom
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Johnny B

Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2002, 12:50:43 AM »
Paul,
No - no changes at 16th yet.  Donald Steele has been out and looked but difficult to find a satisfactory alternate - I also like the hole as a driveable par 4 - the club have removed a lot of gorse and all the gorse to the left of the 16th is gone. I think they have overdone it although it is now looking ok and is recovering quicker than I thought it would.  However most of the Seniors play an iron to the dip and a blind second - admittedly yesterday it was into the wind and they used the very back tee - 276 yards.  I always use driver as I do not like the pitch from the dip and as long as you don't hook it is a relatively safe shot - I think the risk is justified.

Johnny
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2002, 01:41:14 AM »
Johnny Browne:

It's just great to see a competitor posting on here--please keep it up!

I understand what you say about #16 but in my opinion who  cares if it's basically a "driveable par 3" as was mentioned? It may not be a difficult hole score-wise but it's a unique offering in architecture, and should continue as it is in my opinion!

The very wind related options that you've just mentioned of many of the players playing into the dip into the wind shows just how good weather related options can be! Maybe tomorrow with a changed wind they will be undecided whether to go for the green or play into the dip and it doesn't get much better than that fine line of INDECISION when it comes to options.

When I was there on 9/11/2001 of all dates I had a long discussion about #16 with a past R&A captain (member) about what they were going to do with that green (vs rebuilding it way over to the left).

He told me he thought they would rebuild to the left, take the sod off the present green and obsolete the present green!! I thought that was a terrible idea!  I said why can't you just rebuild to the left and leave the present one alone?? He said because they wanted to take the sod off the present one to match the left one to the rest of the course!!

And I said, My God, with today's agronomic sophistication they could certainly figure out a way to match the new left green's putting surface to the rest of the course without stripping the sod off the present one and obsoleting it!

I certainly hope they consider that and basically just leave the 16th as a hole with two green to be used alternately. Where he showed me the new green site was proposed to be it looked to me like the hole would turn out to be even more unique with two greens that were separated by that much ground! Also the proposed new tee site (to the right?) for the new green would only enhance that.

If all that was done the hole would end up being a very unique one and definitely a very interesting looking one as it would be an extremely broad affair in its double totality!!

If you're around there for the next 3 days see if you can speak to the powers and make another recommendation to leave that present green alone and just build another to the left!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Daley

Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2002, 03:59:03 AM »
The year 1953 was one of the biggest ever in golf: most point to Ben Hogan's collosal triumphs this year, but it also marked the year County Down became Royal County Down.

Its architectural lineage is glorified: Old Tom Morris; Harry Vardon; H.S. Colt; and unknown to many, one of the famous Dunn brothers - Seymour - dispensed much advice in the early days.

One fortuitous event in the affairs of County Down was in 1889 when Morris visited to play upon the nine-hole layout. As was often the way in those days, a playing visit invariably turned into a design opportunity when he casually remarked that the linksland was ideally suited for an eighteen-hole upgrade. For the princely sum of four pound, he was engaged.

One of the indelible memories that visitors take away from Newcsatle is the profusion of gorse - 'golden' gorse if you happen to around the right at the right time. It is symbolic of the links and photographers never fail to shoot the long par-3, 4th hole out over a veritable sea of gorse, broken ground and bunkers. Caddies wisely advise: Club up! And yet, this gorse was never an original feature of the terrain. Colt set about planting it everywhere, folllowing his vist in 1926 with Walker Cupper, Willie Murray, and so for 34 years or so, it was absent. Colt did so much for County Down, but in summary, he (a) reduced blindness to a marked degree, and this is significant becuase even today it is known as one of the most recognisable links for this feature. Interesting though, most with a low tolerance for blind golf, do seem to turn a blind eye to the fact when playing this storied links. His treatment of the old 8th and 9th holes - both totally blind par-3s to conclude the outward nine, became legion. The 8th tee stood where the current 9th tee is, and the green lay just over and below the hill - barely a 100 yard flick. The 9th tee was positioned somwhere near the middle of the the current 9th fairway and was played over a sandhill, which I assume is not around today, to the present green. He made these holes redundant and built the glorious 9th hole, by converting two blind holes into one.

(b) Although Colt reduced the 4th hole from a 500 yard par-5 to a long par-3, he added much length to the existing layout which in hindsight was fortuitous with the advent of steel shafts just around the corner. (c) The members were inclined to want to knight HS Colt for another change: previously any ball that was a whisker over the back of the 18th green nearly always rolled OOB. He empathetically remodelled the green and its surrounds to prevent the occurance unless the player exhibited rank poor judgement. An historical aside will help understand Colts move, and why Old Tom may have thought little about it. With Old Tom spending 10 or so years at Prestwick, seeing first hand how the OOB was a bare yard over the last green, he may have thought this added last shot tension was appropriate for 18th holes? Old Tom's upgrade to eighteen holes was the result of two days in Newcastle in the late 1880s.

(d) Colt built the world-famous 4th hole and the much photographed current 9th.

(e) Installed cross-bunkers for the 8th (then the 7th) fairway.
County Down has changed more than most links: one incredible thought is how the original home green (1892 ish) lay where the Sleive Donard Hotel does today. One must be careful with the word 'original'. Becuase the links has undergone 6, maybe 7 layout changes.

(f) Removed many of the 'gathering' greens that early club powerhouse, George Coombe, despised. He was highly influential and was an Irish equivelant of Clifford Roberts, George Crump, and co. He basically got his way!

(g) The 12th hole was lengthened by some 50 yards and the 15th by nearly 60 yards.

In 1924 after years of troublesome weeds, the club experimented with sheep and ran 250 ... under the condition that they were to be removed on competition days.

After fighting coastal erosion from inception, each time with a bandaid type remedy, in 1963 the club bit the bullet and installed 3000 sleepers along the shoreline over 1200 yards for fortification purposes. Until then, it was commonplace for sand and shingle to be carted away, one cart after another.

Today, none of this earlier struggle with nature is evident. We roll up and enjoy golf in a regal of atmosphere, albeit, with the suspicion that it's a little too 'stuffy' to ever feel completely relaxed.  
 


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2002, 04:48:22 AM »
Tom:

The chances of an Open here are slim and none.

There really aren't a lot of places to put spectators, without tramping down the heather and whins.  Also the pro's today don't appreciate blind shots, so they'd whine.


Remember, there's Heaven,
there's Cypress Point,
there's Royal County Down, and

there's everything else!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

TEPaul

Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2002, 02:55:02 AM »
Just caught a bit of the finishing holes and last groups of the Senior British Open today but the course looks great and the wind was definitely blowing. Sugai has a really big lead but if the wind blows tomorrow it will be an interesting finish.

Paul Daley:

Apparently the original first hole (first tee) was placed very near where the restaurant is today at the foot of the driveway to the Sleive Donard Hotel.

Talking about what was original architecture at RCD is not remotely the same as talking about what may have been original architecture at some American courses. What was original architecture at County Down is more a curiosity--no one would or should ever think of restoration of it even if that were possible which of course it isn't!

As to the evolution of the course, the current superintendent should probably be mentioned as well. Many of the members think he's done some wonderful things with the course in the last year or so.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Roger

Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2002, 03:53:00 AM »
There used to be a sign up in either the Grange Golf Club or the Castle Golf Club in Dublin stating "Golfers from all clubs welcome, except Royal County Down," because of snobbery of the members. Non-members could not enter the clubhouse, even during major competitions. I don't think this atitude exists today - I hope not anyway. It looks superb on TV.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2002, 07:07:25 AM »
Roger:

If that attitude exists today I sure never saw it! We were a group of eight from Gulph Mills but we didn't exactly walk in off the street and surprise them either. The whole thing was intricately planned months in advance. We were three days there and had a two day competition with a team from their club and the lunches and dinner with them were some of the best and most memorable I've ever had golf related. I sure hope they come our way some day and we can do the same.

The other thing about Royal County Down I will absolutely never forget is the secretaries in the office. Since we became aware of what had happened in NYC (9/11/01) when we came off #18 and two of our number had sons in and around the Twin Tower complex, those two rushed into the office and asked if they could make phone calls to the US if they reimbursed the club. Spontaneously, the secretaries said: "Call as much as you want and as long as you want and we won't hear of reimbursement again!"

Certainly, I'll never forget that day and Royal County Down G.C's roll in it for us, there were acts of human kindness that were so genuine. I walked later into Newcastle to buy some butts and I guess I look like an American somehow because a couple of trucks and cars and pedestrians stopped and asked if I was American and when I said yes, the said, they were so sorry and that their hearts and minds and prayers were with us all.

I'll never forget that day at RCD and Newcastle for a whole variety of reasons.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2002, 07:30:35 AM »
Paul,

On the subject of reversing the nines, I have always wondered if it's the prospect of having to scale the abrupt hill on 11 so early in the round that puts the powers that be off (especially since there is no practice area where one hit woods)?

In fact, I like the thought of the 10th as a starter as it could help provide a good spacing of groups throughout the round.

Also, while the front is my favorite side in golf, it almost seems a pity to play such great holes as 1-5 before one was really warmed up to the task. (And yes, I realize the same could be said of Pine Valley but the back at County Down is not near the equal to the back at Pine Valley, plus there is a practice area at PV).

Though the order really shouldn't matter, I do prefer the way that two other great favorites (TOC and Cypress Point) keep building in excitement as the round progresses to RCD's flow of holes.

Cheers,

PS On a side note, I am a huge fan of the 15th - while many locals suggest the 13th as the choice hole on the second nine, seems to me that the 15th is its near equal thanks to its superb green complex benched into the side of the hill. Also, the 16th is the perfect foil to the brute 15th - I WOULDN'T TOUCH IT!

PPS Johnny, your tee to green game is too good to have missed out - your putter must have failed you?   :(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2002, 07:54:53 AM »
I said so before and would again that #13 RCD is one of the most stunningly interesting holes I've ever seen (and I didn't know until Ran just mentioned it that the club felt that way about it).

In concept, it would be quite easy to do anywhere and it should be done elsewhere. Of course you might need to forego the dunes elsewhere and probably interchange other features for the dunes on the sides (and the hillside backdrop behind) on other "concept copy" holes but the interest of the drive (blind approach depending on tee shot choices and strategies) is sublme and the way the green and green-end compensates for that blindness is even more sublime!

As to sublime compensating effects of architectural offerings between fairway (tee shot) architecture and green and green-end architecture it's every bit as interesting as NGLA's #16, maybe even more so!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2002, 08:08:58 AM »
Shivas:

Who knows, but you gotta love one American--Tom Watson--for his attitude about European golf. I was watching him closely yesterday and whether he was making a birdie or extricating himself from real trouble he constantly had that expression on his face that's sort of a wry smile! Obviously, that kind of golf really turns him on and my respect for him is even greater for it!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Roger

Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2002, 08:45:24 AM »
Paul

I am glad you were treated so well. I wasn't suggesting it still has that reputation, but it had at one stage. It's not something that I have any first-hand experience of. It's certainly a course I would love to play as everyone raves about it.

On the subject of the attitude of golf clubs, which is off the subject I know, the big clubs outside Dublin in Ireland are a lot more friendly than the ones in Dublin
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2002, 12:25:14 PM »
Haven't been or played, but from what little I see on TV, it looks amazing.

My only question is what's up w/ that pond in the fairway of #17? It's so out of place! Anyone comment on why, is it natuaral (doubt it, but could be) and would it improve the hole if was replaced by a bunker?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Integrity in the moment of choice

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2002, 05:04:47 AM »
Those bunkers at County Down have to be among the most beautiful and natural in the world. They remind me of old photos of St.Andrews and Prestwick. Why did the those courses become riveted or more importantly how did Co.Down avoid the riveting?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Johnny Browne

Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2002, 07:12:39 AM »
Interesting thoughts on co down.  Having watched on satellite TV in UK and been at last day I am sure that reversing the nines would have been better.  All that was seen on TV was the last 5 holes - and while these are very good holes in their own right, they do not really compare to 4,5,6,7,8,9, which we would have seen if the nines had been changed.  I will try to find out why this was not considered/did not happen.  I do  not believe (thank goodness) that the bunkers will ever be changed  - they are known locally as "features of the course", particularly by an opponent when you are in one.  I would also leave the 16th alone but there is a gathering movement to change it - not really sure why as the Seniors did not find it that easy.  It remains a great match play hole.  Donald Steele has had a few looks at it but it is difficult to find an alternative .
The changes at the 18th are interesting - they have made the hole much more difficult and now look (almost) natural.  I liked them at first but now believe they have made the hole too difficult - the strategy has been taken out of the second shot because the fairway is very narrow with the penalty for missing it very high - in the seniors the only people going for the  green in 2 were those who had nothing to lose.
The statistics for each hole make interesting reading - I will append them later.  It was nice to see Tom Watson in the flesh and although his putting let him down he was an excellent ambassador for the game.

Johnny Browne

PS Ran - putted well but qualifying was played on a rahter wet inland course which is my excuse!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Royal County Down
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2002, 08:38:53 PM »
Ran:

I liked your idea of reversing the nines, and I'll go you one
further - and then hosting a British Open.

Sound good?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

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