[T_MacWood]

Pat
Shadow Creek is not a desert course. It is a N.Carolina mountain course that happens to reside in a desert. It could have been created anywhere -- in Kansas, Mongolia or Central Africa -- in the end you would still have a Carolina golf course. Are you familar with Desert Forest, a course that weaves in and out of the natural desert landscape? One course has no realtionship with its desert surroundings, the other blends in with and utilizes its natural surroundings beautifully.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I've played Desert Forest and Shadow Creek.

Both reside in the Desert, though Desert Forest enjoys far, far better topography than Shadow Creek, which was built on a bland or poor piece of land.

The poorer the land, especially land lying in or abutting flood plains, the greater the need for more man made construction to avoid the impact of adverse conditions.

Everything about both courses is man made, Desert Forest just enjoys a better natural site.

The same could be said of LACC, originally built in an area considered high desert.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Do you consider the desert landscape incorporated into the design at Desert Forest man-made? Every inch of Shadow Creek is man-made, perhaps you do not consider the natural attributes of a site part of the design -- if that is true than I suppose Cypress Point, Pine Valley and Ashdown Forest are no different than Shadow Creek or Atlantic. Which might go along way in explaining your tastes. You didn't ask if one site enjoyed natural advantages over another, only if there is any part of desert course that is not man-made, and clearly the desert incorporated into Desert Forest is not man-made.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Have you been to Shadow Creek, or its immediate location ?

My guess is you haven't.  

I'll try my best to describe the land.

Picture a nuclear blast, decimating everything around it.  Now throw in a few clumps of grass here and there, and an occassional bush.  Tbat's Shadow Creek, pre golf course.  There was nothing there, no plants, no cactus, no flowering desert, just barren, desolate land.

Desert Forest enjoyed nice terrain, and the flowering desert.

At Shadwo Creek there was nothing to blend the course into.

Even today, the land surrounding Shadow Creek looks like a nuclear bomb cleared the landscape.

If I blindfolded you and put you in the middle of Shadow Creek, and the mountains weren't visible, you wouldn't have any idea that anything about the golf course was artificial, and I suspect you would think you were in New England or Colorado, not a previously barren piece of desert outside of Las Vegas.

This is one where if you see it in person, you have to give the devil his due.

[T_MacWood]

I think you may answered your own question.

If you will re-read your own question, you didn't ask why one desert golf course might be more man-made than another(of course some sites are blessed more than others requiring increased man-made involvement). You asked if there is any part of any desert course that isn't man-made.

And yes, I'm very familar with Shadow Creek and the Las Vegas area. And if you will re-read the entire thread, you will not see a single comment about the quality of Shadow Creek, nor a single negative comment from myself regarding the quality of Shadow Creek ever on this site. Another broadbrush stroke strikes again. Good night.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Initially, in your post of 10-13-01, 8:31pm you asked if there was any part of Shadow Creek that wasn't man made.

In my post of 10-14-01, 1:28 pm, I merely asked if any part of any desert course wasn't man made.

Every golf course that I know of, in the desert has been totally man made, and Shadow Creek is no different.  The only difference is that Steve Wynn chose to alter the surroundings to reflect a paradise/oasis in the desert, with the mountains framing the course.

In your post of 10-14-01, 2:01 pm, you stated that one course, Desert Forest,
"weaves in and out of the natural desert landscape".  That's great, if the natural surroundings are there in the first place.

There were no desireable natural surroundings at Shadow Creek, and the INTENT
of Steve Wynn was to build a course that departed from the motif of the desolate, barren desert where the site is located.

Had Steve Wynn wanted to blend the course into what LOOKED like natural occuring desert landscape, complete with cactus and flowering desert plants, he would have done so, and no one could have discerned that it wasn't man made natural desert landscape.

Unless you're recommending leaving a golf course in a flash flood zone, its natural surroundings, changing the barren, desolate desert into a fabulous self contained, oasis like setting is a terrific accomplishment, not one to be disparaged, sniped at, or looked upon as inferior due to its difference.

Today, I think any course can be transported to any location and still be a good course.

Plunk NGLA, Shinnecock, PV, GCGC, Augusta anywhere and they're still great courses even if they are out of context with their immediate surrondings.

[Mark Chaplin]

What is the impression of The Bridge now it's settled down and been in play for a few years? A friend is a member and some of the guys went Stateside last autumn and enjoyed their golf there. Obviously I'm interested from a GCA viewpoint.

[George Pazin]

The Bridge offered some of the most.......... entertaining discussions a few years back.

Mark, I'll try to dig up some threads, I'm sure there are quite a few.

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