"Golf Courses on Steroids"

[Tom_Doak]

Jay:

I don't think punishing those players in the report is the right thing to do.  They are being singled out because somebody talked about them ... but lots of others would escape because nobody threatened THEIR personal trainer and got him to talk.  It's highly inconsistent.

I do think 50 games is appropriate for anybody who flunks a test from here on out.  I just wish I believed that the tests would really catch the majority of offenders; but, you'd have to have a lot of faith in your supplier to risk it nowadays.

[George Pazin]

Who would want to play a course known as "Pine Valley on steroids"?

I'd much rather play the real thing.

[Michael Dugger]

I don't really even get the phrase.  

I mean if Pine Valley is not on steroids, what course is?

It's one of the biggest and meanest out there!

I mean what courses are on it?

Oakmont
Muirfield

[Jeff_Brauer]

I agree with Tom, although I have occaisionally used the phrase after reading it somewhere.

There is comic potential here - This course is:

Like X on No Doz......

Like Y on Pepto Bismol.....

Like Z on Preparation H....

I don't know what any of those mean, but I will keep trying until I find one that's funny!

[Jay Flemma]

Jay:

I don't think punishing those players in the report is the right thing to do.  They are being singled out because somebody talked about them ... but lots of others would escape because nobody threatened THEIR personal trainer and got him to talk.  It's highly inconsistent.

Tom, I understand where you're coming from about inconsistency, but get ready because the second wave, far larger will hit asnd will show that MLB is still dragging its feet and not serious about enforcement.

Two days ago, BALCO founder Victor Conte agreed to talk to the WADA (World Anti Doping Agency).  Many more poeple and incidents that have been hidden so far will come to light.  One of my sources said as many as twice the number already exposed or more.

Now what do you think will happen when the details of BALCO'S whole operation come out as opposed to the tip of the iceberg exposed by the Mitchell Report are compared side by side.  All the things that MIGHT have been exposed had Mitchell any subpoena power will be given freely to WADA.


"My God, it will be like a shooting gallery" - Henry Kissinger


"God Dammit!  I'm gonna get Henry Kissinger!" - Sheriff J.W. Pepper

[John Kirk]

I agree with Tom, although I have occaisionally used the phrase after reading it somewhere.

There is comic potential here - This course is:

Like X on No Doz......

Like Y on Pepto Bismol.....

Like Z on Preparation H....

I don't know what any of those mean, but I will keep trying until I find one that's funny!

It's great.  It's like Ballybunion on laxatives.  How's that?

[Jay Flemma]

so what course would be "on cialis?"

Anything the USGA is visiting?  Medinah?

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

Yes!  On laxatives is a great image there.....

Also, speed, viagra, anti-depressants, enemas, LSD, orange juice........

I could go on all day......But laxatives....I don't care who you are, that's funny. (With apologies to Larry the Cable Guy)

[Anthony Butler]

Jay:

I don't think punishing those players in the report is the right thing to do.  They are being singled out because somebody talked about them ...

Wait a second... isn't that why they have things called witnesses in criminal trials?  

From reading the report, I would agree with Tom and others that they haven't reached the 'burden of proof' for most of these people. But any one of them still playing should definitely be "singled" out for further investigation and punishment in a legitimate judicial setting.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2007/12/15/mitchell_there_are_very_very_many_others/

Up here in Boston we are reconsidering the legacy of former GM Dan Duquette. Maybe he knew what he was talking about in 1996 he said Clemens was "in the twilight of his career" and let him leave for two steriod-aided Cy Young seasons in Toronto before joining his fellow cheaters at the New York Yankees.

[Dan Smoot]

I have no answer for this. Will fans continue to support a game that remains infected by substance abuse?

Where's Kenesaw Mountain Landis when we need him?

What needs to happen is this: The Commissioner needs to take drastic steps. He needs to look at the Mitchell evidence, and suspend -- for long periods of time (years), if not for life -- everyone who got caught red-handed. And then he needs to give the same long suspension to everyone who gets caught subsequently. If some offenders (past, present, or future) never get caught, well, so be it. That's life.

Baseball would suffer terribly in the short run, of course -- but, like all great institutions, it would recover eventually, and be better off for the suffering.

The Black Sox scandal would have ruined baseball, don't you think, if not for Landis's extreme punishments? It couldn't live with the idea that gamblers were affecting the outcomes on the field.

I think the same thing could happen here. I really do. A scandal-tainted baseball really isn't Baseball anymore, is it?

Tom Doak --

Linguistic point extremely well taken.

Why not Landis?  We as a society of people (US) don't have the courage to make and respect radical decisions like this any more.  We don't respect authority and we question it continuously.  This is the age of let people do their own thing as long as it doesn't impact me.  There are baseball purists who are offended by the impact of steroids on the traditions of the game.  However, I venture to say there are a larger majority who really don't care.  It is the "I don't care" group that is most worrisome.

Can you imagine if a decision like the Black Sox scandal was made today?  It would be crucified in the media from all angles as unfair.  Do you think Selig has the courage to do this?  No Way.  Baseball booted out a very good man in Fay Vincent because the owners couldn't get their own way.

We as a society can't see the benefits of short time suffering for long term health.   On a bigger scale, we continue along the with the oil dependance noose wrapped around our necks without the political courage to make a collective decision to remove it.  Why?  Because of the short time suffering.  We are soft.

[Anthony Butler]

We as a society of people (US) don't have the courage to make and respect radical decisions like this any more.  We don't respect authority and we question it continuously.  This is the age of let people do their own thing as long as it doesn't impact me.  There are baseball purists who are offended by the impact of steroids on the traditions of the game.  However, I venture to say there are a larger majority who really don't care.  It is the "I don't care" group that is most worrisome.

Can you imagine if a decision like the Black Sox scandal was made today?  It would be crucified in the media from all angles as unfair.  Do you think Selig has the courage to do this?  No Way.  Baseball booted out a very good man in Fay Vincent because the owners couldn't get their own way.

We as a society can't see the benefits of short time suffering for long term health.   On a bigger scale, we continue along the with the oil dependance noose wrapped around our necks without the political courage to make a collective decision to remove it.  Why?  Because of the short time suffering.  We are soft.

Dan,

You're drawing a long bow between steroids in baseball and the lack of suffering we are willing to collectively endure as a society anymore. I do agree with just about everything you say though.

As a society we enjoy the spectacular. It makes our own lives seem somewhat less humdrum. Barry Bonds crushing 73 home runs. Shaune Merriman pulverising the QB. Tiger Woods driving a par 4. Since society so amply rewards those capable of holding our attention with these type of physical feats, athletes will use every opportunity to improve their performance unless they are specifically outlawed. I worked on an anti-drug campaign aimed at Australia's elite athletes before the 2000 Olympics. The stories I got  from household name gold-medal winning athletes would make your hair stand on end...

The MLB players association has been the strongest labor group in baseball. Remember the '94 World Series? Neither do I. The very next year as the teams recognized they needed to make it up to the fans, the game got a lot more... 'spectacular'... and a lot more profitable... the fans were happy, the players happier, and most of the owners even happier.

I'd term it "who wants to kill the goose that layed the golden egg".

They only acted because Congress was threatening to step in.

[Kyle Henderson]

As a society we enjoy the spectacular. It makes our own lives seem somewhat less humdrum. Barry Bonds crushing 73 home runs. Shaune Merriman pulverising the QB. Tiger Woods driving a par 4. Since society so amply rewards those capable of holding our attention with these type of physical feats, athletes will use every opportunity to improve their performance unless they are specifically outlawed. I worked on an anti-drug campaign aimed at Australia's elite athletes before the 2000 Olympics. The stories I got  from household name gold-medal winning athletes would make your hair stand on end...

The MLB players association has been the strongest labor group in baseball. Remember the '94 World Series? Neither do I. The very next year as the teams recognized they needed to make it up to the fans, the game got a lot more... 'spectacular'... and a lot more profitable... the fans were happy, the players happier, and most of the owners even happier.

I'd term it "who wants to kill the goose that layed the golden egg".

They only acted because Congress was threatening to step in.

I agree. MLB has known about the problem for decades and chosen not to intervene because they thought it would be better for the league and/or because they didn't have the gumption to challenge the player's union (note: No. I don’t have the documentation to prove this definitively. I APOLOGIZE FOR OFFENDING ANY FORMER DEBATE TEAM MEMBERS.) They act now because of congressional pressure.

For MLB to penalize players who took performance-enhancing drugs during the time period before the league began testing for them (condoning them in a pragmatic sense) would be hypocritical and unfair in my opinion. Many players had to take drugs to compete for their jobs because MLB never stepped up to the plate on this issue. There's no way of knowing how many players deserve asterisks on their records over the last few decades.

MLB now has the chance to tackle this issue properly, and I hope it eventually will. Harsh penalties for offenders, public education of the health-related (Lyle Alzedo) and legal/professional consequences (Marion Jones), and a more balanced focus that targets growth hormone and amphetamine use are needed, for starters.

It would also be nice if Jose Canseco stopped trying to write books that claim steroid use is healthy if used in moderation. Perhaps Governor Schwarzenegger should write a book about the cardiovascular maladies he sustained.

[Pat Brockwell]

Steroids in golf??? Has anyone else (besides Andy Troeger) noticed that conditions can overly influence rating, and that on a golf course "lush" usually means soft and puffy turf, but is given a positive meaning, even set up as an ideal.  There are lots of steroids on golf courses, easy to see on a weekend sportscast.  

Tom, were you thinking of  this?  I know you and many on this forum are actually the choir, but haven't you ever hit a shot off that kind of lie and really liked it?  I have, but not for long.

[Tom_Doak]

Pat:

I did think of that angle, too, but it wasn't really the meaning of my post.  I was objecting to the glorification of steroids in the media, and to the attitude of many golfers that a course "on steroids" (as in souped-up, extra-difficult) is somehow a good thing.

[Kyle Henderson]

"Owners of The Gallery at Dove Mountain South Course, the site of this week's Match Play tournament, perceive the layout as something akin to Pinehurst No. 2 in the desert.

Not quite. At 7,500-yards, with greens more expansive than Tiger's yacht, the course is more like ST. ANDREWS ON STEROIDS than anything the legendary Donald Ross ever designed. Players will have to hit it long, as well as shaping their shots under the wind."

 

[Paul Sinclair]

Well, this doesn't add anything to this discussion but I heard this just last night and it came to mind as I read this thread. Kinda stupid, but ...

Two race horses are in the barn after a morning workout. One horse looks at the other and complains that he has been having pains in his hind quarter for the last several workouts. The other horse says "well maybe you just have some arthritis or something."

A dog in the barn looks at the first horse and says, "hey, dumbo, haven't you noticed they have been injecting you with steroids for the last couple of months? You're probably breaking down from all that steroid use."

The first horse looks at the second horse and says, "jeez, who'd have thought it - a talking dog!"

Like I said, kinda stupid but since I just heard it last night it came to mind. Probably better hearing it told by somebody who does a bang-on Mr. Ed impression. Coupla drinks probably didn't hurt the effect either.

Sorry for a comic turn on a serious subject. Steroids is ruining my enjoyment of baseball. I sure as heck hope that testing in golf doesn't pop everybody's bubble about it being a "clean" sport.

[MargaretC]

These are just some of the side-effects of steriod abuse in teens:
 
...steroids can make pimples pop up and hair fall out. They can make guys grow breasts and girls grow beards. Steroids can cause livers to grow tumors and hearts to clog up. They can even send users on violent, angry rampages....

...steroids cause hormone imbalances...for teens, hormone balance is important. Hormones are involved in the development of a girl's feminine traits and a boy's masculine traits. When someone abuses steroids, gender mix-ups happen.

Using steroids, guys can experience shrunken testicles and reduced sperm count. They can also end up with breasts, a condition called gynecomastia.

Using steroids, girls can become more masculine. Their voices deepen. They grow excessive body hair. Their breast size decreases...

These are tragic consequences that are not being communicated to young persons.  Takes away some of the glory of a touchdown, home run, etc., doesn't it?

Meg

[Jay Flemma]

Margaret, I'll give you another one that really made me pause.  One of the side effects of winstrol (also called stanozonol), what Clemens is accused of taking is a feeling of invincibility and superiority.  A permanent and irreversible psychosis which deludes the user into euphoric feelings and dominant behavior toward others.

Is it possible that this explains Clemens's entire legal strategy in this mess?  That he believes he didn't do it and is going to harangue the world into agreeing with him?  Does this explain the utter, UTTER folly of walking into Congress (CONGRESS!) with a flimsy cock-and-bull story and a shouting match where he says "I was doin' y'all a favor!"

Look, my two cents is he insisted on this hearing because he claimed there were serious flaws in the MItchell report.  We have to send a message not to waste the government's time with tomfoolery.  prosecute him on General Principle.

[MargaretC]

...One of the side effects of winstrol (also called stanozonol), what Clemens is accused of taking is a feeling of invincibility and superiority.  A permanent and irreversible psychosis which deludes the user into euphoric feelings and dominant behavior toward others...

Is it possible that this explains Clemens's entire legal strategy in this mess?  That he believes he didn't do it and is going to harangue the world into agreeing with him?  Does this explain the utter, UTTER folly of walking into Congress (CONGRESS!) with a flimsy cock-and-bull story and a shouting match where he says "I was doin' y'all a favor!"

Look, my two cents is he insisted on this hearing because he claimed there were serious flaws in the MItchell report.  We have to send a message not to waste the government's time with tomfoolery.  prosecute him on General Principle.

Jay, I don't think science has scratched the surface in identifying the all of the negative side-effects from abusing steriods.  Part of the problem is that there are labs all over the world creating new drugs.  Drugs that are combinations and drugs that can't be detected in conventional drug screens, which increases the street value. 

IMO, virtually all steriod abuse will cause some form of cognitive dysfunction and/or mental illness -- not just anger issues.  The brain's electrical system is maintained via a delicate balance of chemicals. 

Clemen's behavior could very well be the result of taking Winstrol.  It makes me angry and sad.  I love sports, but...

Remember Lyle Alzado?  Sadly, I believe there are many such tragedies in the making as we discuss this issue...  Equally sad, I hope their demise gets as much media coverage as their home runs...  Maybe that's what it will take...

Meg