[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

There is nothing wrong with a desire to have a 7000+ course.  Just because the maxed out length would be serving a pretty small number of golfers does not mean that they should be locked out.  A couple of years ago I was forced to play Kingbarns at about 6500 yards--the course played close to a boring pitch and putt and I have trouble seeing if it is a great course.  It gets boring hiting wedge or sand wedge on every hole--and I did shoot under par that day playing it for the first time.  The real measure of a great course is flexibility.
  Also, in Southern California when a new course is built under 7000 yards, it signifies that it is probably an open space requirement and has been built on the cheap.  Occassionally, there are exceptions, but overall, short equals terrible open space courses.  Examples in SD are Eagle Crest, Twin Oaks, Eastlake, Mt. Woodson, Wood Valley.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

If the owners have the land available, what is wrong with building an equal to Winged Foot or Bethpage Black?
   When originally built, they would probably play closer to 8000 yards with today's equipment.
    Is there anything wrong with aspiring to create a modern tournament worthy masterpiece?

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think most good golf courses do need to be 7000 yards long these days to appease all members, and whilst only a small percentage will enjoy the course from the very back tees, there is such a range probably 1,000 yards between the normal members tees and tips. As long as the course is around 6500 from the normal back tees I am sure that 18x30 yard extensions can be found, or enough to stretch that other 500. We do not know how much more technology is going to stretch things in the future.
Golf course architects do not always get it their own way and there are land restrictions as well as client orders, all you can do is do your best.

[Tom_Doak]

David:

I've built a LOT of really good long par-4's in my life, so I'm not trying to run around my backhand here.  It's just that it's not so easy to get up over 7000 if you include two or three good short par-4's and a par-5 just over 500 yards.

The real problem for me in this case is that I have already done (for a modest fee) what I think is a REALLY GOOD routing for this course which came out to 6725 yards par 70.  If I take the job I know I am going to have to mess up at least two of those holes, but the bigger factor is that I am going to have to risk that the "golf guy" is equally assertive throughout the rest of the project, telling me the "realities" of modern golf design like some of the other posters above.  (Is there a middle finger smiley?)    

I hadn't pegged the client that way at the beginning or I would never have gotten to this point.

[Craig Sweet]

Back in the day when I did landscaping, I would have a client or two every year that would bring in a "landscape guy" to work with me....usually it was the irrigation guy, but sometimes it would be a friend who "really knows plants"....I tried to stay away from projects like that....typically the irrigation guy barely knew irrigation, much less garden design, and the plant person would be a transplanted Californian who had a long list of their favorite plants, 90% of which would not survive a Montana winter....I think I walked away, part way through a couple of these projects, before I learned to not take them in the first place.

[Mike Benham]

Funny how the original post didn't have all the facts, specifically that you had already done some work for this client on this project.

That being said, I assume you have said all these things to this client, i.e. the need to lengthen some par-4s and par-5s, lose really great holes already designed and the fact that you didn't have him pegged as this type of client?  If so, how did he take it?  If he told you that it didn't matter, he wanted a 7+/72, then you have no choice but to walk away, you do have to sleep with yourself at night.

[Matthew Hunt]

Tom, could you not keep the two problem holes the same? By my math 14 yards a hole would take it too the 'magic number'. Assuming no extra yardage gain on 4 par 3 this would bring the figure to 18 yards. Could 10 'Tiger tees' of an extra 25 yards not be built in AFTER the design process so it does not comprimise the golfing experiance of 98% of players.  

Tom, can I ask about the role of the 'golf guy'? Is he a 'cowboy' pretending to be an expert or is he one? Are such hired people common?

[Mark_Fine]

Unless someone takes a stand, courses will keep getting longer and longer and the game will continue to get more expensive and suffer along with it     I am willing to bet that by the 2013 Open at Merion, even that course will be stretched to over 7000 yards.  New real estate will be purchased, new tees added and it would not even surprise me if they even consider moving greens e.g. #2 seems like a possibility   all in the pursuit of length.  

Why does a 4I (for those who still carry one) have to go 220 yards?  Would the game really suffer if it only went 175?  Maybe someday basketball courts and soccer and football fields will start expanding out of control too so we can make those games more expensive as well.  

[Matthew Hunt]

Unless someone takes a stand, courses will keep getting longer and longer and the game will continue to get more expensive and suffer along with it     I am willing to bet that by the 2013 Open at Merion, even that course will be stretched to over 7000 yards.  New real estate will be purchased, new tees added and it would not even surprise me if they even consider moving greens e.g. #2 seems like a possibility   all in the pursuit of length.  

Why does a 4I (for those who still carry one) have to go 220 yards?  Would the game really suffer if it only went 175?  Maybe someday basketball courts and soccer and football fields will start expanding out of control too so we can make those games more expensive as well.  

In Hurling the skillful stick game was reduced to long drive up the field and score. Notice any simalaritys? So the GAA simply moved the ball back 10 years.

[Tom_Doak]

Contrary to the apparent assumption of many here, I am not polling my friends here to see what I should do about this contract.  I'll talk to the client and decide whether he is someone I want to work with or not.  My only point in posting was to let you all know that these sorts of mandates still happen, whether you are a prominent architect or not.

[SL_Solow]

Tom;  Understood.  Many of us have similar issues with clients who hire us for our expertise and then tell us how to do our jobs or bring in "experts" to look over our shoulders.  You would be surprised to know how many people know how to try complex commercial lawsuits.

In the end we have to do what we think is best under the circumstances.  The real issue you raise is the constraints on creativity and the additional costs created by this attitude.  For those of us who are consumers, the consequences are worth considering.

Finally, I always get a kick out of the "critic" who sees 7,000 plus par 72 as more golf course than 6700 plus par 72.  The tyranny of numbers.

[John Moore II]

Tom-I think its just generally a poor situation you have been put in. By them saying that you must do the course a certain way, it seems that they just want your name in order to advertise. Demanding like that, to me, makes what you are doing less art and more stamping out something. Just a bad situation to have.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Contrary to the apparent assumption of many here, I am not polling my friends here to see what I should do about this contract.  I'll talk to the client and decide whether he is someone I want to work with or not.  My only point in posting was to let you all know that these sorts of mandates still happen, whether you are a prominent architect or not.

Tom- Those things are always going to happen, the client has his plan of what he wants, it does not matter what type of architecture is involved it will always be the same, some clients have very definite wants. At the end of the day 7001 yards par 72 is exactly the same as 6725 par 70. If he cant understand that your course will play the same as a par 72 7000 yarder, but he may ofcourse feel 7000 yards is a great marketing tool. Maybe best he buys an off the shelf plan from someone else who designs golf holes rather than gets the best from the land. Architects have the choice to do as told or walk away, I am sure we have all walked away sometimes and on other occasions 'reluctanly compromised'.

[henrye]

Tom.  Because you didn't provide any context around the client or golf guy, it was difficult to sympathize with your dilemma.  If the developer had been a major housing or resort developer with a "golf point man", I could understand the 7,000 mandate.

I think you will run into more of these potential commissions if you pursue those types of clients.  Compromise will become more commonplace.  It would seem to me that those types of developers are more risk averse and less imaginative (generally) and tend to work more with the "celebrity" architects.

[Bill Brightly]

What if Tom is right, and the client and the golf guy are wrong? What if Tom really has the best possible routing? What if the course Doak builds gains such acclaim that no one really cares that it is under 7000 yards? What if Doak's reputation continues to grow, and years later, the client is so thankful that he did not listen to the "golf guy", and trusted Doak, and his course is a "must play"?

[Adrian_Stiff]

What if. I am sure TD absolutely feels the routing he has done is the best that he could get out of that land. The point here is more simpler, either Tom pursuades the client this is the best and only solution or Tom feels he can compromise or in compromising it does not come up to his standard and is not prepared to attach his name. The client is the payer so its up to him ultimately. 100% Autonomy in a golf project is quite hard to achieve, you almost need the client to know nothing.

[Dieter Jones]

Perhaps this is like the movie industry. The director creates his master piece but the studio execs tell him that the ending isn't happy enough or the good guy doesn't win so he'll need to change it.

Build your par 70 6700 yard course then add 150m to 2 of the par 4's, call them 5's and give the "golf guy" what he wants.

Your version can be the "Directors Cut".

[Philippe Binette]

Dieter:

you got to be pretty damn lucky that your great routing has room to back of a tee 150 yards on two holes, espiecally two among specific holes which are the long par 4...

Most of the time (depends on this site) you can have a hard times strecthing holes 15 yards more...

Another solution: go through the history book, discover that the United States adopted the metric system (it happen for real somewhere in 1790 or so) and put your distances in meters...

[Carl Rogers]

I am a little surprised by the tone and range of questions raised by this thread.

I will give you my unadulterated bottom line:  the client can only make 2 decisions, either hire you or fire you.  If the client can not give you a whole lot more than the benefit of the doubt, then the client made a mistake by hiring anybody or by doing the project at all.

The biggest failures are projects that are trying to pacify too many constituencies and doing nothing well.

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