More about "Defense"

[Patrick_Mucci]

In the DZ.

Prior threads discussed architectural features that could assist in defending par in the DZ that didn't unduly punish the mediocre or poor golfer.

Deception and canted DZ's were two methods mentioned.

One method would seem to be to separate the DZ for the better player from that of the mediocre or poor player.

Isn't the easiest way to accomplish that by having them all tee off from the same tee ?

If they all tee off from the same tee the DZ will be in a different location for those three sets of golfers.

And, if they're in different locations, each location can be prepared differently without impinging on the others.

But in thinking about it, I asked myself, "what makes a golfer uncomfortable ?"
More uncomfortable than being on a canted fairway.

To me it seemed like a rumpled fairway that produces innumerable uneven lies was a logical choice.

This concept seems ideally suited for par 4/5's.
Holes that play as par 4's for the better player and par 5's for the mediocre and poor player.

It would also seem ideal for short par 4's for the better player.

And, the cost to construct wouldn't be onerous, in fact, given that fewer tees would be constructed it would probably be less.
although the cost to maintain might be slightly higher in the rumpled area, it would be less at the tee end.

Seems like a simple method for helping to defend par against the better player while not penalizing the mediocre and poor player

[Paul Gray]

Pat,

Whilst I kind of endorse the sentiment, I'm certainly not sure that longer hitters should be presented with all the trouble while shorter hitters can just blast away. Furthermore, problem after problem in the DZ for the longer hitter tends to induce a procession of hybrids from the tee.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Whilst I kind of endorse the sentiment, I'm certainly not sure that longer hitters should be presented with all the trouble while shorter hitters can just blast away.

Paul,

Isn't that a contradiction ?

"short hitters who can 'blast away'" ?

Shouldn't the test/challenge for the better player be more rigorous than the challenge presented to the mediocre to poor player ?

Furthermore, problem after problem in the DZ for the longer hitter tends to induce a procession of hybrids from the tee.

Which would cause them to have to play a longer approach shot.

That's an effective defense.

[archie_struthers]

 

You build some turbo boosts into the fairway for the shorter hitters to enjoy while making sure the bombers hit into some graduated slopes. Augusta does just the opposite in its design, making it a haven for long hitters ( that can putt)

[Peter Pallotta]

Pat - a seeming fact not mentioned enough is that very good (but relatively short-hitting) golfers like Jim Furyk, Zach Johnson and Fred Funk won many times (including majors) after tour courses started trying to Tiger-proof themselves by getting longer and narrower. I think one of the reasons is that, as you suggest, they didn't (being short hitters) have to contend with all the newly-devised trouble/bunkers/narrowed fairways designed to pose problems for Tiger and his long-hitting brethren. That advantage, however, was to some degree off-set by that very same quality/advantage, i.e. their short-hitting ways, since it meant that they were coming into greens with longer clubs. But, since they would be doing so in any event, the 'trade off' for such players was a pretty good one. I'd never thought of it before, but the idea could work as you suggest for amateur golfers on non-tour courses as well.

Peter

[Ryan Coles]

Punish and conspire against the successful and change things to reward the lazy and inept in some sort of effort for an equality of outcome.

We're still talking about golf courses, right?

Where's Lou Duran when you need him?

[Paul Gray]

Pat,

Whilst I kind of endorse the sentiment, I'm certainly not sure that longer hitters should be presented with all the trouble while shorter hitters can just blast away.

Paul,

Isn't that a contradiction ?

"short hitters who can 'blast away'" ?

Shouldn't the test/challenge for the better player be more rigorous than the challenge presented to the mediocre to poor player ?

Furthermore, problem after problem in the DZ for the longer hitter tends to induce a procession of hybrids from the tee.

Which would cause them to have to play a longer approach shot.

That's an effective defense.

Now Pat, that's a nice attempt at playing with semantics but you know full well that anyone can blast away, even if that blast means a drive of 150 yards.

But all this just sounds like pinch it here, there and everywhere in an attempt to control the long hitter and we both know that just means less width and therein less strategy. We've both seen that misguided strategy at many a course, of that I'm sure, and we both know there's nothing truly strategic, not in the classic sense, in the "leave the driver in the bag" mentality because "it's all a bit narrow." Hopefully we're finally getting away from that nonsense.

And as for hazards/problems which are more widely spaced so as to ask questions of all levels of player, I'm really just stealing the idea from Tom Doak. A few years ago, prior to considering the idea, I would have had regimental fairway traps at DZ lengths for the big boys. But Tom got me thinking about the very sensible notion that all the fun/trouble shouldn't be reserved for the single digit golfer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat - a seeming fact not mentioned enough is that very good (but relatively short-hitting) golfers like Jim Furyk, Zach Johnson and Fred Funk won many times (including majors) after tour courses started trying to Tiger-proof themselves by getting longer and narrower. I think one of the reasons is that, as you suggest, they didn't (being short hitters) have to contend with all the newly-devised trouble/bunkers/narrowed fairways designed to pose problems for Tiger and his long-hitting brethren. That advantage, however, was to some degree off-set by that very same quality/advantage, i.e. their short-hitting ways, since it meant that they were coming into greens with longer clubs. But, since they would be doing so in any event, the 'trade off' for such players was a pretty good one. I'd never thought of it before, but the idea could work as you suggest for amateur golfers on non-tour courses as well.

peter,

This thread has nothing to do with the PGA Tour player

[Patrick_Mucci]

Punish and conspire against the successful and change things to reward the lazy and inept in some sort of effort for an equality of outcome.


Ryan, when you consider that the better player has been disproportionally advantaged, vis a vis modern equipment and the ball, I see nothing wrong with countering and equalizing that advantage.

We're still talking about golf courses, right?

Correctomundo !

Where's Lou Duran when you need him?

He's busy rumpling fairways

[Mike_Trenham]

A modest turn "dog-leg"of the fairway at the landing area of the DZ of longest hitters seems to make it harder to keep the ball in the fairway.  An effectively narrow landing area seems to make golfers uncomfortable.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A modest turn "dog-leg"of the fairway at the landing area of the DZ of longest hitters seems to make it harder to keep the ball in the fairway. 

I agree.
However, I've never been favorably disposed toward sharp doglegs where a severe penalty confronts the long ball

An effectively narrow landing area seems to make golfers uncomfortable.

Yes, but does that unduly punish the second shot of the higher handicap ?

[Kyle Harris]

A modest turn "dog-leg"of the fairway at the landing area of the DZ of longest hitters seems to make it harder to keep the ball in the fairway.  An effectively narrow landing area seems to make golfers uncomfortable.

William Flynn seemed particularly adept at this defense.

The 13th hole at Cleveland Heights (I think it's B-8 in the present configuration, I rarely play there when I can't do the original second nine at Flynn routed it) is an almost continuous dogleg from the tee where one must commit to an awkward line to find the fairway. Get too far outside the dogleg and water await, too far inside and you're blocked by mature live oaks.