[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Alfonsoe:

It's interesting that you think a par-3 moves traffic along. Is it an easy hole? At the dogsh*t Al-Zikorus muni where I play a difficult par-3 is the second hole and it is responsible for backing up traffic all the way to the first tee. It's not uncommon to play the first - an idiotic par-4 with a stream cutting across the landing area - and find two groups waiting on the second tee.

Mt. Washington no longer begins with a par-3.

Anthony

[Phil Benedict]

I don't like it when I play a shotgun and start on a par 3.  Nor do I particularly like any opener that takes driver out of my hands.  I prefer a relatively stress free first shot that I can hit with a driver.

I admit this is purely emotional rather than intellectual and there's no rule that says architects ought to cater to my emotional needs, although I don't think I'm alone in thinking this way.

The other side of the coin is I don't particularly like a par-3 finisher, prefering to finish with a longish par 4 (I know this is a bit of a cliche).  There's something deeply satisfying about playing a long par 4 well, so it's nice to finish that way if you can pull it off.

[Bill_Yates]

Anthony,
The reason you wait on the tee of the second hole at your course is because the first hole plays faster than the more difficult par 3 (which can only hold one playing group at a time) second hole.  This is precisely why when designing a course, the routing and hole sequencing is so very important.  Had the difficult par 3 second hole been the first hole, it might be likely that you would encounter no or only minor backups at all on the course.

Adrian and Anthony,
While 8 minutes may be the "standard tee time interval," for many courses it may not be the "right tee time interval."

[Art Roselle]

Nor do I particularly like any opener that takes driver out of my hands.  I prefer a relatively stress free first shot that I can hit with a driver.
  There's something deeply satisfying about playing a long par 4 well, so it's nice to finish that way if you can pull it off.

There is no such thing as a stress free shot that I can hit with a driver.

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Anthony,

They are not short. In the upper course about 200yds from the back tees and in the lower course, 220yds, both to well bunkered greens. About 20 yds less from the non-championship men's tees. In both, the tee shot has to fly over a ravine (not a long flight, maybe 100yds but intimidating for higher handicappers).

Maybe it is the fact that they are not easy what makes it a course that doesn't have traffic problems thereafter....

[Paul_Turner]

In my home club (Puerta de Hierro, Madrid, Spain) we have two courses, both of which start with a par 3.

Although I know it is unusual, I have found that a par 3 as a first hole  is a great solution to avoid traffic in further holes and it is also easier a hole to start with, as people can warm up with an iron shot rather than their driver.

Why are opening par 3s so unusual? Does it have to do with routing requirements or is it avoided because of other reasons?

Alfonso

What do you think of the Kyle Philips redo of your Colt/Simpson course?  Did he change much other that the bunker style-it looks a bit like Valderama now, from the one photo I've seen.

[Tim Gavrich]

I seem to recall thumbing through *Lost Links* sometime in a bookstore, and coming across a little profile of an NLE Devereux Emmet course in NY that began with THREE consecutive par 3s.  A meduim-length one, a long one, and a short one, if I remember correctly.

[Craig Sweet]

I like the idea...my course, a muni, opens with a 505 yard par 5...it is the norm to have 3 groups on the hole at one time (on the green, in the fairway, on the tee)....this par 5 first sets the slow pace of play at my course and when we reach the par 3 5th hole it all comes to a big traffic jam... and there's never enough benches to hold everyone.

I can see where a par 3 opener would speed up play...

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Paul,

Kyle Philips (while working for Trent Jones Jr.) was asked two things:

1. To restore greens and bunkers in the upper course, aside from making minor changes to a couple of holes.

2. To rework a new course out of the existing lower course. This course had been changed a number of times and was a par 69 not very popular with the members as it was quite quirky. In fact, I am not sure which holes in this course remained an original design of Colt /Simpson

My view is that he did a great job. The upper course maintains all the original routing, and a lot of interest has been added to the greens.

The lower course is a completely new layout in which few original holes remain. This course plays more difficult than the upper as it has very long par 4s and 3s, but maintaining the style of the upper course (wide landing areas for driving but very demanding shots to greens)

Regarding Valderrama-like bunkers, I cannot see in which way they resemble PH's

[Bill_Yates]

Craig,
You got it!  The routing is the key to smooth play and a properly designed Par 3 first hole will be the "Starter."

[Paul_Turner]

Paul,

Kyle Philips (while working for Trent Jones Jr.) was asked two things:

1. To restore greens and bunkers in the upper course, aside from making minor changes to a couple of holes.

2. To rework a new course out of the existing lower course. This course had been changed a number of times and was a par 69 not very popular with the members as it was quite quirky. In fact, I am not sure which holes in this course remained an original design of Colt /Simpson

My view is that he did a great job. The upper course maintains all the original routing, and a lot of interest has been added to the greens.

The lower course is a completely new layout in which few original holes remain. This course plays more difficult than the upper as it has very long par 4s and 3s, but maintaining the style of the upper course (wide landing areas for driving but very demanding shots to greens)

Regarding Valderrama-like bunkers, I cannot see in which way they resemble PH's

Alfonso

Thanks very much for your reply.

I'm wondering which course is the original?  From old magazine articles I believe Colt built a course there around 1912.  Probably the upper because it looks quite hilly from the few photos I've seen. [Harris is sometimes connected to the course too.  He was Colt's construction man]

I thought Simpson then remodelled some of that original Colt course?  

But I wasn't aware that there are two courses.  Do you know who designed the second course?

Thanks

Paul

[Mike Hendren]

Kilspindie, though I don't believe it is the original routing.

[Paul_Turner]

I'd wager that the toughest par 3 opener is the 240 yds at Meyrick Park.

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Paul,

The upper course is the original and, yes, Harris did tweak some holes and add some new ones when the club reopened after war.

I don't know who designed the second course, but the club only mentions Colt, Simpson, Harris and Trent Jones Jr./Phillips as architects since 1914 (when the course was opened), so I guess that it was one of them who did lay the holes.

I am trying to gather info on the full history of the courses, so hopefully will be able to provide you something more in a near future.

Cheers,

[Craig Disher]

I like the idea of par 3 openers - especially tough ones that you are likely to bogey anyway.  I think it does speed up play.  A short par 4 accomplishes the same goal if a there is an argeement not to tee off until the players have left the green.  West Cornwall has a cracking opening par 3.  Hayling's is good as well.  Huntercombe has a short opener, perhaps a bit too short.  

Ciao

Sean,
What is your take on Littlestone's opener? It's short and driveable (not worth the risk imo) although local etiquette permits teeing off while the group is still on the green. The only delay is from planting the ball in the miserable rough - which the club will be addressing this year. Starting with a lost ball isn't a winner, especially with societies.

[Bill_McBride]

The funniest story about that hole is of John Bland - the fine South African player -  who is terrified of heights and could not walk across the bridge.He always walked down through the ravine and up to the green.

Mike, John Bland probably wouldn't like Bel Air in Los Angeles either, with that bridge from the clubhouse across the ravine to the 10th green!

[Justin Gale]

There are a few goat tracks in the Sydney area that have extremely short opening holes. It definitely does feel wrong holding a wedge or less in your hands for the first shot of the day.

[Mike_Clayton]

Bill.

No - he would be hopeless there as well.
It is horrifying to hear Alfonso say they replaced the bridge with a cart part.
Maybe it looks ok but it's hard to imagine the latter looking better than the old bridge - and the bridge at Bel Air is fantastic from my single memory of playing the course.

Justin,
Once only they used a two tee start at Kingston Heath in a tournament - 1995 Players Championship - and 10 was obviously the tee they used.It was weird starting a round with  a wedge.
They have a two tee start for the Women's Open at the end of the month - but they have changed the routing significantly - 1,19,12,13,14,15,16,17,18.
The 7th plays as the 10th hole then they go 8,9,11,2,3,4,5 and 6.

[Alfonso Erhardt]

Mike,

The carth path does not take the direct route to the hole and is not visible from the tee. It is not a straight replacement. We just have to walk a little longer now....

Its just that you do not go through the forest and over the ravine any more in that hole. You do in the other course (which is now the championship course) through a similar bridge as existed in the upper course.

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