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David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
How many architects...(Doak reference included)
« on: January 09, 2008, 02:49:36 AM »
How many architects have more than one course that is discussed more on here than Tom Doak's least discussed course?

Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many architects...(Doak reference included)
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2008, 08:49:00 AM »
Only C and C.......

Fazio maybe, but only in the negative sense.

This site really is unfair in that way, but as we all know, golf was never supposed to be fair.  And golfclubatlas.com is never supposed to be "fair" either.

It does seem that mainstream gca's are "fair game" though! ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many architects...(Doak reference included)
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2008, 08:53:42 AM »
If you exclude ODGs then not very many.  I think it has to do with the fact that most people on here prefer courses that are more similar to an ODG's course.  There are only a handful of "minimalists" out there right now and Doak happens to be one of them, ergo, discussion about Doak courses.

I think, primarily, we discuss the courses of the architects that post here, C&C, Doak and the ODGs.

I will agree w/ Jeff, however, that guys like Nicklaus, Fazio and Rees are discussed on here frequently, but typically in a negative way.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Chris_Clouser

Re:How many architects...(Doak reference included)
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2008, 11:27:21 AM »
I think Pete Dye's stuff gets talked about quite a bit.  But that is the only other one I can think of off the top of my head.  And Jeff Brauer has had a few courses discussed on here, but it seems that after the initial thread they don't come back up.  But we get post after post about Bandon or Friars Head or Ballyneal or Sand Hills.  I've actually even quit looking at threads about those places because they have been discussed ad nauseum and if I want to see something about the course I'll go to the review.

It is too bad because people like Tim Liddy, Tripp Davis, Mike DeVries, Ron Kern and a few others only get discussed sparingly and they have been posters in the past.  Also guys like Lester George, Keith Foster and Clyde Johnston I think have only had one course even discussed that I can remember.

It's funny because the thread out of my Indiana series that generated the most comments was the Warren Course, a C&C design.  But courses like Purgatory, Rock Hollow and a few others that are better generated much less conversation.  Even Dye's Brickyard course had very little action on the thread by comparison.  I'll be curious to see if I post one about Quail Crossing after visiting it this year how much action it sees.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 11:31:31 AM by Chris_Clouser »

John Kavanaugh

Re:How many architects...(Doak reference included)
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2008, 11:35:41 AM »
This is the kind of thread I would delete as moderator.  The facts are way off and insulting to the site.  Doak gives more to this site than he receives and really does not get much press on his courses.  Pacific Dunes is great...we get it.

Bandon IV will get much discussion because it is the end of modern golf architectural discussion and review as we know it.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many architects...(Doak reference included)
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2008, 11:41:41 AM »
John,

I wasn't intending to insult Tom. If I was, I would have included the phrase "Butt Boys." ;)

I think its mostly a function of the fact that most people are only going to discuss courses they know, whether through TV Toonimint Courses or ones played.  And, only a few courses are really well known nationally, even if lots of others merit discussions.

Tom gives a lot to this site, I agree.  Given he knows what he is talking about, I tend to read all his posts.  Some others, not so much......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

Re:How many architects...(Doak reference included)
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2008, 11:48:33 AM »
John,

I wasn't intending to insult Tom. If I was, I would have included the phrase "Butt Boys." ;)

I think its mostly a function of the fact that most people are only going to discuss courses they know, whether through TV Toonimint Courses or ones played.  And, only a few courses are really well known nationally, even if lots of others merit discussions.

Tom gives a lot to this site, I agree.  Given he knows what he is talking about, I tend to read all his posts.  Some others, not so much......

Jeff,

You did not start the thread or insult Tom.  I did think you did yourself a disservice with your response to Paul Thomas on the Colbert thread.  I know it is as difficult to take a compliment as it is to blow your own horn but felt Paul gave you a soft ball that you missed.  I've heard things about Colbert and would have been interested in a more serious attempt at a response.  I think sometimes we forget that Doak really is just another nobody Ivy league success story.  He ain't no Crenshaw, as few are.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many architects...(Doak reference included)
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2008, 12:46:04 PM »
John,

I have never considered this site a marketing arm as some do. (mostly writers rather than gca's)  I particpate mostly as a form of mental stimulation (or some similar word!)  

As such, I figure that my reply was taken in the context of all my replies, including the MATH thread, where I was still venting somewhat at responses to my comments there.  Of course, I don't harbor any inflated sense that everyone here waits to read my posts breathlessly, so there may be a flaw in my logic on that particular post.

Thus, if I missed a softball, so be it. Had there been a specific question to answer rather than a general "Whaddya Think" I would have been glad to answer.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many architects...(Doak reference included)
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2008, 01:32:26 PM »
 Jeff, I think your writing is highly appreciated by the silent majority of GCA.com.  BTW... what is a "Mainstream Architect"?

Dave, I think Tom Doak gets plenty of type time because he's all over the world building private, public and resort courses in exotic and prime land locations.  He writes here and he writes books so there is feedback and forthrightness.  I don't find it tedious to read his words or words about his courses but that is probably because I've played several of his teams creations.  I continually find that his courses appeal to me and worthy of travel and expense. I agree that this website is Doak-heavy, but I don't know how to connect to a thread about Xenophon Hassenplug if I've never seen a course of his.  And I'm sure many feel the same way about Vernon Macan, or Willie Fernie, etc.  

Mackenzie is difficult to become acquainted with because most of his creations are Private courses. (Hmmm... why did I capitalize that word? Must be a caste thing.)  

Thank Heaven for Dalmunzie in Spittal of Glenshee!!!

 

 
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many architects...(Doak reference included)
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2008, 03:18:41 PM »
Mackenzie, Ross, AWT.

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many architects...(Doak reference included)
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2008, 05:45:54 PM »
Jeff,

In all seriousness, I read your posts with great interest.  I think you add alot to the discussion and I especially appreciate your candor and wit.  

I have to say you take a more active role than I ever could (or would) and your perspective is tempered with a great deal of experience to back up your position.  I agree that people are most comfortable discussing courses they have seen, but I must say I have spent some time reading about and exploring those courses I haven't seen because it tends to keep my interest in discovery.  

Thanks for making it interesting.  Now, if you could only hit that 1 iron as well as I do!!

Lester

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many architects...(Doak reference included)
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2008, 06:32:27 PM »
Slag,

I think to be a mainstreamer, you have to have one of three things - membership in ASGCA, smooth edged bunkers, and a belief that at least some courses might be better off without designing towards minimalism.

Lester,

I once could hit a one iron.......and I was not trying for any sympathy back pats or "Atta boys!"  Like the proverbial umpire, just callin' em like I sees them!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Moore II

Re:How many architects...(Doak reference included)
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2008, 06:53:39 PM »
Jeff--I completely agree with your point about not all courses need to be designed minimalist. Sometimes, depending on the property, that can look more manufactured than a 'regular' golf course.  

--Perhaps more than 'minimalist' I like to think of Naturalist, make the course actually look like it belongs there. Yes, I know Minimalist does that to a degree. What I mean is that a Pacific Dunes/Whistling Straits would not fit in Western Montana any more than Pine Valley/Oakmont would fit on Kiawah Island. Make the course belong to the property, each of those courses fit the property. If you try to force Whistling Straits into the mountains, it will look frankly stupid.

Jay Flemma

Re:How many architects...(Doak reference included)
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2008, 06:54:16 PM »
Mike Strantz gets alot of good discussion...

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many architects...(Doak reference included)
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2008, 07:09:45 PM »
Jeff,

I was not trying to patronize or be sympathetic.  Hope you realize my comments were genuine.

Lester

Mike_Cirba

Re:How many architects...(Doak reference included)
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2008, 07:13:43 PM »
Jeff,

I was not trying to patronize or be sympathetic.  Hope you realize my comments were genuine.

Lester

Lester,

What can you tell us about Rock Manor?

It looked pretty good from the road, with bunker styles seemingly inspired a bit by Thomas or Mackenzie.  

Ian Andrew

Re:How many architects...(Doak reference included)
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2008, 07:24:56 PM »
I gave this some thought, and the answer is lots - but you need to be here over the long haul to realize that. This is just the dead guys. It's a much more inclusive list for the living guys - even all the major Canadian architects have been discussed a few times each.

Ones that come to mind: Mackenzie, Colt, Tillinghast, Thomas, MacDonald, Raynor, even Banks, Maxwell ,Thompson, Ross, William Flynn, Charles Alison, Willie Park Jr., Tom Simpson, William Langford, Walter Travis, even Hugh Wilson, Old Tom Morris, Deverault Emmett, Tom Bendelow, Billy Bell, Eddie Hackett, Eddie hackett

Ones that I don’t think we have: Max Behr, Herbert Strong, James Braid, Herbert Fowler, Herbert Leeds, J.F. Abercromby, John Low, George Combe, C.K. Hotchkins, Horace Hutcheson, Chandler Egan, Robert Hunter, Walter Hatch, James MCGovern , Kinja Fujita, Wayne Stiles ,Vernon Macan, Mackenzie Ross, Alex Russell ,Fred Hawtree ,Red Lawrence ,William Gordon
Eddie hackett


I think what this thread is reacting to is Tom Doak is discussed more than anyone else since he chooses to actively participate in the site. Why wouldn't you discuss his work when he's here to answer your questions. Others like Brauer, recently Jim Engn, Lester, Kelly Blake Moran etc. have also been discussed with them piping in too.

The fun for me is when someone has the capacity to discuss a new architect and some of those threads have been jewels for someone like myself. That said, its tougher to do that with a living architect because of people's sensitivities which was well illustrated through Pat Ruddy's retorts to a thread.  The architects have egos and feelings - and I think some would perfer not to hurt feelings or bruise egos and avoid the discussions of their work.

I know from my perspective that its hard to tell you how bad Brauer - er how good Brauer is for example. ;)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2008, 07:57:00 PM by Ian Andrew »

Lester George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How many architects...(Doak reference included)
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2008, 02:37:42 PM »
Mike,

I am really excited about Rock Manor.  I was just there Wednesday and it is starting to look like something special.  Grow-in was interrupted and the strategy was changed when the city finally decided on Billy Casper Management to operate it.  That allowed us to move forward with bent grass fairways.  

The look is somewhat George Thomas and I am glad you recognize that.  I am sure I did not approach it as trying to be that, but I am flattered with the comparison.  I am trying to get photos of it now, are you close by?  Would you be interested in touring it and taking some early shots for posting in GCA?  Let me know.

Lester

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