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John Kavanaugh

Re:Please help with a negative Lawsonia review.
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2008, 09:07:02 AM »
First, I am going to take credit for another excellent thread.  Second, I will return for more continuing education at the University of Wisconsin no later than November of 09 for another go around Lawsonia and Erin Hills.  In other words, I am convinced it is a fine course, I just need to learn to love it.

If Lawsonia really is as good as everyone seems to feel I see no reason why a biennial event would not be a success.  

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Please help with a negative Lawsonia review.
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2008, 03:31:03 PM »


Wayne,  I have the opposite problem having seen MacRaynor's primarily in photos.  The overall look is similar but I agree L/M looks more natural.  Strategically, L/M on some courses have used MacDonald templates.  At Lawsonia you don't see them but some have agrued 4 is a Redan (I disagree) and that 7 or 15 are shorts (well they are short).  I would argue that nine presents a cape concept using long grass along the inside of the right swinging dogleg.  



Dan:

I've always thought Lawsonia's par 3 4th and 7th are about as close as L/M got to using Raynor/Macdonald template holes that I've seen.

Here's George Bahto's description of a Short, from the GCA interview:

"2. Please briefly describe the matched set of par-3 holes the pair typically designed into their courses.


In the order of their length, we will start with the so-called 'Short', a fairly generic par-3 common to many courses in the British Isles long before Macdonald began his quest for the better holes in Europe. The 'Short' specifically tests the skills of the short-iron game. Macdonald always felt there was room for improvement in a golf hole, so he (and later Raynor) surrounded his versions of this genre' with a sea of sand - elevating the green to make the target more dramatic and intimidating. These Shorts were nearly always drawn as a squarish looking green with a larger surrounding enclosure indicating sand bunkering. The bunkering details would then be developed during the construction phase. Short hole putting surfaces were generally much wider than deep, containing strong undulations befitting a shorter hole. A horseshoe feature with the open end facing the tee or a rounded dished depression were mainstays of design. Two of their finest examples can be found at the wild 6th at National and 10th at Chicago Golf Club (where two depressions are separated by a ridge). The origin of the Macdonald/Raynor Short was the 5th at Brancaster. He favored this particular version over the 8th at St. Andrews because the tee-box was higher and afforded a clearer view of the green. Shorts were generally constructed 135 to 145 yards long but often clubs incorrectly added back tees in a pointless effort to gain yardage on the scorecard."

True, the 7th at Lawsonia lacks sand, and the quirky nature of the internal horseshoe (perhaps too many caveats for the purists like Pat Mucci), although the 7th does have a significant ridge bisecting the green. But my impression of a Short is that, broadly, it's a hole that requires a short iron of precision, with severe penalties for a miss. That seems to be what Raynor/Macdonald were getting at in terms of their concept for the hole, and the 7th in my mind certainly fits the bill. I think the 7th tips out at 161, but it's often played in the 140-145 range.

Here is the Redan description from the Bahto interview:

"What more accurate way to describe a 'Redan' than Macdonald's own words? 'Take a narrow tableland, tilt it a little from right to left, dig a deep bunker on the front side, approach it diagonally, and you have a Redan.' Bear in mind when Macdonald says 'tilt,' he means it. At National, hole #4 falls over five feet from front to rear. Redans are usually around 190 yards (a formidable distance in the early days of golf) with numerous strategic options depending on wind direction and course conditions: Fly it to the green if you are able, lay-up and chip on hoping to make three, hit a running shot at the banked area fronting the green or even play left of the Redan bunker hoping for a better approach angle (not recommended!). Behind the green are usually deep sand pits to catch aggressive play. To identify the best renditions, I would have to agree with this site's 'Discussion Group.' National's 4th and Piping Rock's 3rd are the most outstanding they built."

Absent the strong tilt, that certainly describes the 4th at Lawsonia. It tips at 203, plays at an angle, with the ability to hit short and chip/putt for par, and features a strong embankment-like bunker fronting left and traps back left and right for the overly aggressive shot. If not a Redan, it certainly seems Redan-esque.



« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 03:33:09 PM by Phil McDade »

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Please help with a negative Lawsonia review.
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2008, 04:37:19 PM »
Barney;  when you go back, consider ignoring your own advice and play the courses at the American Club.  There are some very good holes on an interesting site.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Please help with a negative Lawsonia review.
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2008, 04:51:10 PM »
Shel,

I have never felt part of the current intended demographic of The American Club.  It just doesn't seem like a guys retreat.  Maybe someday if my wife learns to play.

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Please help with a negative Lawsonia review.
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2008, 05:03:10 PM »
Courses are full ogf all male groups.  Other options for lodging exist.  Its not Bandon but its not what you think.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Please help with a negative Lawsonia review.
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2008, 05:16:48 PM »
John:

The American Club is pretty cool, and has spa amenities for those not partaking in golf. Upscale, esp. for Wisconsin, in a rustic sort of way. Very good dining. Besides, there is always the bathroom museum in Kohler (seriously, it's one of the best museums in the state, which maybe isn't saying much, or says a lot, depending...)

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Please help with a negative Lawsonia review.
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2008, 05:21:00 PM »
I heard the Kohler bathroom museum is rated number 2.....

" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Dan Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Please help with a negative Lawsonia review.
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2008, 06:07:23 PM »
Phil,

I think the 3rd at Spring Valley (particularly if the sand were added) is much closer to to the MacRaynor short than the 7th at Lawsonia.  I think you minimize how unique the 7th is by trying to compare it to a Short hole.  Langford clearly knew what a Short was and imho he didn't design and build the 7th as Short.  

I don't think the 4th green at Lawsonia is angled from right to left; its a very big oval.  Absent the angled green, the tilt and mounding on the right to help take the ball left I can't see the 4th as a Redan.  I don't think it can be a Redan without the tilt.  

Hopefully we'll have a chance to debate it on site and in person later this year.    

Maybe we can we agree the large left hand fairway bunker on 6 is a Principal's Nose bunker?  
« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 06:07:49 PM by Dan Moore »
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Please help with a negative Lawsonia review.
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2008, 07:29:43 PM »
Dan:

Well, the 7th at Lawsonia is certainly unique, and not having played a Raynor/Macdonald Short, I can't fairly make a comparison. But I'd argue the strategy of the 7th -- a short iron with severe penalties for a miss -- at least fits within the general concept of what Raynor/Macdonald were trying to accomplish with their Short hole (Ran uses the capitalized "Short" in his GCA review of the 7th.)

The 4th green to me seems to be to be angled from the tee -- those tees have always been sort of oddly misaligned, as they aim straight (more toward the 5th fairway) yet the tee markers are set at an angle to the hole, and the green to me is one in which there is more width than depth, which I think is characteristic of Redans, although I could be wrong. Granted, that green doesn't have the requisite tilt, and the tilt -- certainly from the pictures I've seen of Redans at the National and Fishers -- is probably a requisite feature of a Redan. But I do think it has echoes of a Redan -- certainly Langford knew of the Redan concept, and at least to my eyes appears to mimic it here, if not exactly duplicate it. The fronting bunker certainly is intimidating, one of the features that does seem inherent to Redans.

I'm not entirely convinced of the 6th's left bunkers as Principal's Nose bunkers, either. My sense of the Principal's Nose concept -- I haven't played TOC, but walked it, and examined the 16th pretty closely, because it's one of my favorite par 4s on the course -- is that those bunkers at TOC force the golfer into a decision on the tee: left of the bunkers is perhaps the safer route, but leaves a tougher approach; right of the bunkers is riskier, but the golfer then enjoys an easier approach. Is anything left of Lawsonia's fairway bunkers on the 6th desireable? If the pin is on that smallish left-side lower shelf, you certainly want to be on the left side of the fairway, near those bunkers, it seems. But would you really want to attack a pin like that from left of those bunkers. Maybe I'm missing something; I've always thought the decision off the tee (for the long player) at the 6th (a downhill tee shot) is carrying the fronting mound right at about 200 yards with the knowledge that trouble lurks left with those two bunkers left jutting into the fairway. But I'm open to other arguments.

Sounds like another road trip to Green Lake is needed for further investigation!


Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Please help with a negative Lawsonia review.
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2008, 09:01:38 PM »
I heard the Kohler bathroom museum is rated number 2.....



Actually, it's number 1 AND number 2...
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Please help with a negative Lawsonia review.
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2008, 09:20:44 PM »
I heard the Kohler bathroom museum is rated number 2.....



Actually, it's number 1 AND number 2...

See Evan, that's why I like you. You're sick enough to be the only one to respond and disrupt a very good architecture discussion.

My apologies for Evan, folks.....you'd think he would learn.... ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Evan Fleisher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Please help with a negative Lawsonia review.
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2008, 01:54:38 PM »
I heard the Kohler bathroom museum is rated number 2.....



Actually, it's number 1 AND number 2...

See Evan, that's why I like you. You're sick enough to be the only one to respond and disrupt a very good architecture discussion.

My apologies for Evan, folks.....you'd think he would learn.... ;D

Joe

Sorry about my potty-mouthed humor...its a family trait...
Born Rochester, MN. Grew up Miami, FL. Live Cleveland, OH. Handicap 13.2. Have 26 & 23 year old girls and wife of 29 years. I'm a Senior Supply Chain Business Analyst for Vitamix. Diehard walker, but tolerate cart riders! Love to travel, always have my sticks with me. Mollydooker for life!