[Matt_Cohn]

great, now i feel stupid...

michael, wtf?!

[Kyle Henderson]

Michael/Matt: You guys are awesome.

[Kyle Henderson]

Here you go...

Even in this setting, I badly wish to introduce that cart path on #10 to some heavy ordinance. Simply a nasty blight on otherwise hallowed ground.

[James Bennett]

Kyle

great sentiments about the cart path, but I don't think it will happen.  An interesting development though at MPCC (compared to virtually every other club in the world) - The Dunes was rebuilt with paths and undulations to shift the water in wet seasons (Spring 2006 was one of them for sure), with carts required to stay on path.  The Shore has newly sandcapped fairways, and no cart paths.

It certainly appeared to me that the members valued the firm fairways of the Shore, perhaps from the golf perspective, and perhaps from being able to drive up to their ball despite the heavy recent rains at that time.

Good luck to them, it is their club.

James B

[Tom Huckaby]

Excellent question, Bob.  And you are getting some fine answers from very astute people who do realize that surroundings matter.

Heck, even Patrick sees it now.  

 

[Michael Whitaker]

Michael

that other version of #10 is very believable.  Where is it?

James B

Badlands Golf Club near Las Vegas. I found the picture through a Google search.

[Bob_Huntley]

By the way, the cart path at #10 has been torn up and is now a sandy pathway; what happens in the rainy season is yet to be seen.

Bob

[Kyle Henderson]

Kyle

great sentiments about the cart path, but I don't think it will happen.  An interesting development though at MPCC (compared to virtually every other club in the world) - The Dunes was rebuilt with paths and undulations to shift the water in wet seasons (Spring 2006 was one of them for sure), with carts required to stay on path.  The Shore has newly sandcapped fairways, and no cart paths.

It certainly appeared to me that the members valued the firm fairways of the Shore, perhaps from the golf perspective, and perhaps from being able to drive up to their ball despite the heavy recent rains at that time.

Good luck to them, it is their club.

James B

I was aware of those drainage solutions for the most part, but thank you for the info. Are you saying the cart paths were actually designed to channel water away from the playing surfaces?

Bob: Was the pavement removed for aethetic reasons or to prevent wacky bounces?

[Michael Whitaker]

I just had to do one more of #10... without the ocean it looks like many holes I have seen in the NC Sandhills. Here's #10 as if it were located in Pinehurst. It now looks kind of "Tom Fazioish" to me.

[James Bennett]

Kyle

great sentiments about the cart path, but I don't think it will happen.  An interesting development though at MPCC (compared to virtually every other club in the world) - The Dunes was rebuilt with paths and undulations to shift the water in wet seasons (Spring 2006 was one of them for sure), with carts required to stay on path.  The Shore has newly sandcapped fairways, and no cart paths.

It certainly appeared to me that the members valued the firm fairways of the Shore, perhaps from the golf perspective, and perhaps from being able to drive up to their ball despite the heavy recent rains at that time.

Good luck to them, it is their club.

James B

I was aware of those drainage solutions for the most part, but thank you for the info. Are you saying the cart paths were actually designed to channel water away from the playing surfaces?

Bob: Was the pavement removed for aesthetic reasons or to prevent wacky bounces?

Kyle

I should have said "The Dunes was rebuilt with paths, and with undulations to shift the water in wet seasons"

The point was (not well made mind you) that The Dunes does not drain as well in severe weather as The Shore.  The only way cart golf is possible in such weather without severe damage to the course is strict 'cart path' golf.  The members now have a rare choice after severe rain - The Dunes with cart paths or The Shore with sandcapped fairways.  They seem to enjoy the latter from my limited observation.

Bob

So the #10 path has gone.   Well, it will be interesting to see how the hole goes without the path.  I guess it will depend on the amount of traffic it gets in severe weather.

James B

[James Bennett]

Four options for  #10 at the Dunes (MPCC) - two Michael Whittaker creations.  Perhaps this could become a new 'template  hole' a la St Andrews #11 The Eden and North Berwick #15  The Redan.  What would we call it?  Perhaps a Hunter MacRaynor.









James B (and Michael Whitaker)

[David Ober]

Which one would suffer most in the "Great" category sans the ocean.

Black marking pens at the ready.

Bob

The tenth, originally by Raynor in 1925  but I do believe some extras by Hunter and peripherally MacKenzie, post Raynor's demise.


The fourteenth, completely new hole by Rees Jones some seven years ago.

Definitely the 10th. Not even close.

The 14th would be a great hole regardless of whether the hazare right and long were the ocean or bunkers or a lake or anything else. The ocean just makes it that much better.

What an amazing hole 14 is.

[James Bennett]

I just had to do one more of #10... without the ocean it looks like many holes I have seen in the NC Sandhills. Here's #10 as if it were located in Pinehurst. It now looks kind of "Tom Fazioish" to me.

Michael

three holes earlier, there is a par 3 in the forest part of The Dunes.  I assume #7 is an Eden template.  It is probably closer to your NC holes, albeit with Monterey Pines.



Also, I have a wider version of #10, more akin to the width of the MPCC web-site shot.  It truly is a beautiful place.  



Funny thing - looking at #10 without the ocean, and putting the tee back a further 50 yards.  You could easily be at Royal Adelaide on #12.  Simple, small green, slightly raised.  Small. shallow front bunker that looks imposing.  Small chipping area at the front and right.  Very similar.



Bob H

Given that Rees Jones added #14 to the other par 3's (#3 biarritz, #7 eden, #10 short?), what and where was the hole that preceded the new #14?

James B

[Kyle Henderson]

Bob H

Given that Rees Jones added #14 to the other par 3's (#3 biarritz, #7 eden, #10 short?), what and where was the hole that preceded the new #14?

James B

To my knowledge, #14 was located in a position very similar to where it is now. Rees took advantage of equipment that was not available when the course was originally built, pushing the green and tee to the right into the oceanside rocks to make the carry more imposing.

I'm sure Bob can lend further insight. Also, there was an article about the changes in NCGA magazine a few years ago, but I don't think it's posted in the arichives on their website anymore.

[Bob_Huntley]

James,

I answered this at length yesterday and instead of hitting the send button, I punched something else and the whole thing disappeared.

Here's a shorter version.

The original green was some thirty to forty yards left of the current site, not too far away from the road. It was quite a mundane hole, playing between 130 and 160 yards, narrow and elongated with a bunker covering about eighty per cent of the front of the green.

Rees Jones determined that, despite the nay-sayers doubts about the viability of the green lasting one storm, the off-shore rocks and reef would break up the heaviest surf. To date he has been right. I think that on only a couple of occasions have we needed to wash off salt water from the putting surface.

The new back tee in the rocks was first mooted by Andy Notttenkamper whan he joined the club over thirty years ago. He knew what he was talking about as he went on to win six club championships.

Bob

[Norbert P]

What would we call it?  

 It looks like Mackenzie's "Gibraltar" Hole.

#10 @ Alwoodly   "Gibraltar"

[James Bennett]

Slag

it does look like Gibraltar, but it plays downhill (both MPCC Dunes #10 and RA #12) and the rhs falls away rather than being trapped.  Both Gibraltars (Moortown #10 and Alwoodley #11) have bunkering to the right.

I find it very interesting to see similarities between Mackenzies work on Monterey Peninsula and some of hiw work down Under at similar points in time.  Fairway bunkering at RA #14 also looks like a mirror image of CPC #2.

James B

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