To Redan or not to Redan? UPDATE - Is it a Redan?

[Mike Nuzzo]

The following is taken from my blog today - there are links to almost all the Redans listed on live.MSN.com.  Many seemed to enjoy the last time I showed a progression of a hole - the 7th.  This time it is much more subtle, but maybe more interesting.

"I've seen and played several Redans*. "The Redan" at North Berwick, Chicago, Shore Acres, Shinnecock, NGLA, The Knoll, Pacific Dunes, Apache Stronghold and many other variants of varying quality (all those links are to aerials of the Redans - give 'em a click). The primary features are a green that runs away from the player with a fortress type bunker flanking the front and usually back of the green. None of the green complexes I listed above are completely similar, and frankly I don't think any of them look much like the original Redan.



The above illustration is the original layout of the 6th hole at Wolf Point. I visualized this hole early on in the routing process. The green site was surrounded in the back by a drainage way and the creek protects the entire left side. I struggled whether to make it a "real" Redan or to have a similar strategy or not at all. Don would suggest to ignore the fact that there ever was a Redan and we'll just make the hole as good as we can. Tomorrow I'm going to have Don guest host and explain why the 6th is one of his favorites.

*If you would like to read more about the history or the redan pick up the following book: The Evangelist of Golf by my friend George Bahto."

Cheers

[Bill Brightly]

Build the Redan, of course! How many are there in Texas?

Don't they all love forts and military history down there?

[JMorgan]

Mike, do a variation on the theme and call it the Alamo.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Well, I have built some redans in Texas, so there are at least some.  

Mike, there are two reasons I could see to not do a Redan there....The first is if you couldn't pull it far enough away from the creek to make going over the green to a soft chip back an option (going in the creek is too harsh for going long and not in keeping with the original concept)

Also, what is the prevailing wind on the hole?  It would IMHO not work great with a left to right wind.

Other than that, the site is tailor made for a Redan and I don't know of any in that area of the State.....

[Rich Goodale]

Nuzzer

Why not do something radical and build a REAL Redan, unlike those poofter things that CBM and his butt boys sold like hotcakes to the gormless American fat cats in the 1920's?  Make the front a fortress, and keep that slope and stream to the left.  Make the hacker's "kicker" a false one, just like at North Berwick--hit it right and you skip into some stygian bunkers (as you know, I've been there...).

As we approach the Centenary of NGLA, it's about time that somebody had the cojones to show us Murcans how a Redan should properly be done.  Who better than you?

Good luck!

Rich

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mike Redan yes Redan. Jeff comments on the wind are valid. I am wondering where the trap on the top right is? Go for it and make it wonderful.  It is still one of my favorite holes at Mountain Lake.

[Mike Nuzzo]

James,
I like the name... we have named a few items based on our location.

Jeff,
Good point about going long.

Rihc,
Yes I do recall you hitting it in the stygian bunker.  
I found the original quite a snap - 3 iron into the wind to the back of the green - easy 2 putt.
And I completely agree that That Redan is nothing like any of the others, frankly I was a little confused as to how the holes even had the same name.  

Tiger,
It is a good thing we are already finished and you can see what we built tomorrow on the blog.  

[JMorgan]

Ok how about the De Ran, a reverse Redan sloping back-to-front?  

(If you're worried about Ran getting a big head, just tell him you named it for the final battle in the eponymous Kurosawa movie.)

[Jim Thompson]

Mike,

Given what I know about your very unique setting and what I've seen so far, I don't think I'd do to much redanification there.  I think some good rumpling and a couple small nasty front pots would be the way to go.  A rise in the 7-8 position on that green with a grassy pot behind would also be a special treat now and then.  You could even do it so the front pots looked like stirrups, wait that's a different story all together.

My 2 cents.

Cheers!

JT

[Adam Clayman]

I don't see where going long/left into the creek as too severe. If the green slopes away and to the left, isn't the play short and right? Going long left is therefore a proportionate penalty to NOT playing prudently.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thanks fellas.
I didn't expect that some were going to suggest what to do -- but I'm very they glad.

Here is the as-built sketch followed by Don's thoughts on the hole:


One of my favorite holes on our golf course is the 6th hole.  I love this hole because it is so subtle and so simple -- and because it required very little work -- I already had enough work to do!  It is a par 3 that can play from 210 to 135 yards.  It plays almost due south. The prevailing wind is from the south east and is into the player at about the 10 o’clock angle.

By far the hardest part about building this hole was having the courage to just leave it alone. We debated this a lot as the original plan called for a couple of bunkers to be added and shaped. But as we cleared the few trees and light brush in the area it became even more obvious that very little work was required for this to be a fine golf hole. The hole has a creek hazard running up the entire left side and behind the left portion of the green. Since the lay of the land is sloping right to left, the creek is very much in play and additional hazards were not needed. The green slopes hard to the left and the back half falls away to the creek behind.


Present view from the forward tees on the green side of the creek.
The hole from the other side looks better -- I'm saving those.

The green is highlighted by a number of small crevasse-like drainage cuts that were natural to the area and surface drain the green. Some small ridges were added to the right portion of the green to allow the player to “kick” the ball toward a left pin, and to complicate the chip for the player who bails out to the safer right side of the hole.

Mike has his own modern architectural dislikes, and I don’t have the patience to come up with 10 at this time, but chief among mine is the fact that I believe most architects would have felt the need to “spruce up” this hole, if only so it photographed better. Or they feel the need to “copy” holes that were built over a century ago by architects who worked with the ground they were given. If we need to copy anything from the past, we should be looking at the processes they used to create great holes with the land they had to work with. Our 6th hole represents the type of architecture that I love, and find lacking in most modern work; simple, subtle, yet very challenging. I’m very proud of the work (or lack of) we did to create this hole.
Don Mahaffey


The Green up close this Sept after sprigging.
Cheers

[Bill Brightly]

Thanks fellas.
I didn't expect that some were going to suggest what to do -- but I'm very they glad.

Are you kidding? You post a topo map, in color  ...and ask an open ended question...OF COURSE we are going to make suggestions!

[Mike Nuzzo]

Bill,
Yes thank you.

I could have said I was expecting y'all to say what I should have done... not what I should do.  

We're long past shaping.

[Bill Brightly]

This first map shows a front bunker, but I cant see it on the picture. Will there be a bunker short of the green?

[Mike Nuzzo]

Bill,
No bunkers.
That fissure in front of the green is still there and can be seen in the picture - it is where I placed a bunker in the original sketch.

I will not be calling it a Redan, and Don most certainly won't.

Who would call it a Redan?

Cheers

[Tom_Doak]

Mike:

Without a bunker on the diagonal in front, I don't think very many people will identify this as a Redan.  But you never know ... I've seen George Bahto try to identify Redans based only on looking at a scorecard, without having seen the course.

[RJ_Daley]

How many sq ft is that green going to be?  How many yards in front of the putting surface is it from that drainage swale that is in shadow and goes from the trees on the right to the creek on the left?  Then there is a second swale behind the deep one in shadow.  Is that the apron of the green?  Will it be cut apron length and maintained firm?  Is there drainage under the swale, or rely on surface only?  Can it be kept firm?

[Mike Nuzzo]

RJ
It is a pretty healthy size - 6-7k sft.
That swale is quite short of the green - check out the aerial sketch - that was created from GPS data.
It will all be kept firm.
When we dress it up I'll send another pic or two that will help.
There is a lot of room to the right, I just wouldn't want that chip.
Cheers

[RJ_Daley]

Mike, the direction of my questions about the second more minor swale behind the deeper drainage swale in the shadow was trying to estimate it's influence on a grounder.  From the back tees of 210, I'm guessing that with firm conditions, one could skip a little 6-5 iron puncher of about 150 yards, landing close and on high right side of that second minor swale and watch it glide into the green, trickling ever left from the LZ spot.  It that a fair assumption as to intent of offering a ground option?  It seems to me what would be a big 3 iron or 7 wood aerial for me might get too much bounce in good firm conditions, and go down back left into real trouble.  I'd take my chance with getting a chip or bump stopped.  It looks like a fairly easy bogey, difficult par hole that looks easier than it is to me.

Don't ask my why, but I'm seeing in this par 3, the flavor of the par 4 of #12, Rustic Canyon.  I guess it is the big wide right side look...

[Mike Nuzzo]

RJ
The intent is to be able to run the ball on 17 of 18 greens - this is one of those.

I don't think a 150 yard shot will get you there from the regular tee.

I wish I knew exactly how it will play, I can only tell you that was the intent.

I won't be hitting the first shot on the grass - so it may be just a little while before I find out.

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

In terms of things you could have done, I was going to suggest not making it a true Redan.  That would have required a lot of modification.  From the pictures it doesn't look anything like a Redan, as built.  Hopefully you won't call it a Redan.

One thing I was going to suggest based on your first drawing was to get the green tee over across the creek with the orange tee.  Otherwise the forward tee was going to be a completely different hole.  I see you built it with the green tee across the creek - that's good.  Given that, though, does the orange tee actually play across the back of the preceding green?  Is the green tee really one with the back of the preceeding green.  Seems to be a liability risk, although a neat feature.

[RJ_Daley]

Mike, if you need any test pilots to sample the firmness of ground landings, I'm your guy!  

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thanks Bryan.
I don't think it is a Redan.

The picture above was more or less taken from the original Green tee location.  If you look at the last sketch you'll see 7 teeing spots.  Basically where ever it looked like you could hit a ball we made sure it was kind of flat and that it didn't look like at tee.

We're not concerned with liability.
1.  There are other teeing choices.
2.  There are no other players.  

[Bill Brightly]

Definitely not a Redan now. But once you are outta there...and we get the right Greeens Committee, we'll get Bahto down there and dig out that fissure into a DEEP bunker...looks like the kick mound is already there...


Of course I am kidding, but do you ever wonder what others might do to your work down the road? Has it ever happened to you where another architect was brought in to change what you built?