Is uncomfortable unfair?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Topics seem to have drifted a bit from the philosophical that I enjoy here, althought kudos to Tommy for the Art of the bunker thread.....

I had one of those golfer/architect discussions the other day that I thought I would share.  At a remodel project, a local player asks if we can/should remove some more trees, and we go around the course. ( For the record, tree mitigation ordinances here are steep, meaning I am not inclined to use any more budget than necessary removing trees needlessly.)

AT a long par 3, with reverse redan characteristics, he thinks a tree midway down and the right side of the hole prevents him from hitting his normal hook, and he his not sure the redan bank will be enough to keep him on the greens with his hook.  (No, this question did not come from Bill V. ie, Redanman, but it well could have!  Also, I haven't actually seen it, but I suppose from his description it is not always a gentle hook, but rather, the runnin' beauty big dog hook, so prevalent here in Texas)

Is requiring a particular shot pattern simply uncomfortable to a player, or is it unfair?

Later, on a short par 4, There is a lake left on a cape style hole.  There is a stubby tree - easily cleared with the required short iron - on the right front of a 70 yards long green, placed in valley, which allows for richochet shots from either direction.  The player says, "With the lake left, you have told me prime position is the right side.  And yet, from there, I have to come over the small tree when the pin is right, especially, which I can do, but its uncomfortable, and I have just hit the perfect tee shot, and I can't go directly for that pin."

The discussion of the dilemma or option we try to create by rewarding a risky shot by the pond falls on somewhat deaf ears.  We in fact do not want to reward timid play away from hazards, and in fact, did allow options from the right by creating the kick in banks.

Is it merely uncomfortable that he must play over the tree from the safe fairway position, or unfair?  Similarly, uncomfortable or unfair not to hit right at the pin w/o inventing a shot from that portion of the fairway?

On another project, the design potentially includes a lake, which require aiming out over water to let the wind bring the ball back to the fairway - not in the prevailing wind, but an off season wind.   (Shades of the Road Hole) Is this an acceptable design feature, if we can make the fairway wide enough to accomodate a shot, or should the lake be stricken from the design?

Is the occaisonal tee shot starting over a penalty hazard like OB or water merely uncomfortable, or is it unfair?

Here are some other design concepts I have heard argued either way.  Are these merely uncomfortable, or blatantly unfair?

A greenside bunker shot with water on the other side?

Lay up tee shots on long par 4s and reachable par 5's?

Downhill lies for long iron shots, especially to uphill greens?

Tees aligning other than straight down the fairway?

Short putts that require aim outside the hole?

Bunkers that require playing out backwards from some positions?

Reverse slope greens on long iron shots?

Carry hazards, if they are out of my range?

Sorry to overdo the post, so feel free to comment on one, all, or any number in between.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff;

Fabulous topic, and I hope to chime in more as the discussion progresses.

In the interim, let me attempt to answer two of them;

"Downhill lies for long iron shots, especially to uphill greens?"

"Tees aligning other than straight down the fairway?"

The 18th at Merion.

The 6th (and others) at Merion.

[mike_beene]

Unfair can have different meanings.To me ,a hole becomes unfair when luck becomes the dominant factor.Luck has an important place in a golf examination,not for the luck itself,but to see how a player handles both good and bad breaks.Unfair is a cup cut where a ball won't stop.Of the examples you list trees forcing a shot pattern is border line unfair(once or twice a round is OK)The person who can work the ball will get enough benifits anyway.I don't care for forced layups.Bunker shot at water?No one makes you hit it at hole.Short breaking putts?Hit the shot before below the hole.There are a few courses in Dallas that think they are in Florida,with forced carries to surrounded targets.That gets old in 30 mph winds,not to mention expensive.

[Tim Weiman]

Jeff Brauer:

I don't see requiring a particular shot pattern as unfair. Some might argue that "options" are better, but I like the challenge of having to play different shots and getting creative with the golf ball.  The trick is to be sure the requirements don't become repetitive and variety is maintained.

[Mike_Cirba]

Jeff;

One more before bedtime;

"A greenside bunker shot with water on the other side?"

The 11th at Merion.

[Tyler Kearns]

Jeff,
       Uncomfortable is not unfair. Players who do not possess the shots required to play the designated preferred line of play will face the consequences of a tougher approach. That's golf! However, if players MUST hit a certain shot from the tee, then we may be speaking on terms of unfair. The Cape Hole example you described, the approach from the right hand side of the fairway does not demand one single means of attack, thus it is not unfair. It may not appeal to the player in question, but other options exist.

[TEPaul]

I gotta go but this sure is another really topnotch topic on your part Jeff! I look forward to some interesting replies and I'll be back tonight to contribute something!

Good show!

[BK]

I have to start by saying that I never feel comfortable on the golf course(unless I've had a few kool-aids  , but then it becomes unfair, ).

I've played some holes I felt were unfair, but mostly because I didn't have the shot to pull em off, or wasn't creative enough to see another option.  My predominant game is left to right, with a pull hook on occasion.  No I don't feel comfortable on hole that sets up for a hook, but I do try to fit my game to the hole and adjust.  Isn't that what the game is about, creating shots, adapting your game to the conditions and the course.
Yes there are some holes that are unfair but not unplayable.  I can recall a course here in Ohio, Apple Valley, after playing it initially, several holes seem unfair in that they require you to hit shots with clubs you may not be proficient in.
The 7th is a 230 yd. par 3, sand left front, small opening to right to run it on.  Unfair?  To the average or below average golfer who has to hit a driver yea.
They have some par 4's that present similar problems. Number 15 is a 470 yd. par 4 slightly uphill into the prevailing wind,  two large bunkers in front prevent a shot from rolling on.  One must be able to hit a long iron or fairway wood with great accuracy to be rewarded.  Not a shot the average golfer can pull off with any confidence or consistency.  
These are a few examples, there are others that initially seem unfair but I've made my point.
Yet I enjoy playing there, and go back often to accept the challenge.  Thats right, golf is  a challenge, its not always comfortable, I guess if thats what you looking for then sit in your easy chair and watch Tiger.
I need my "A" game to play there and not only do I have to hit it long, I gotta be smart and accurate.

[BV]

Uncomfortable reflects a deficiency of one's game for a particular shot.

Unfair (Or stoopid)     is when no one has the shot?

[Peter Galea]

Reverse slope greens on long iron shots?

As long as there's  room behind the green to play the third shot from, this point and all the rest are fine with me.

[ed_getka]

I think a shot goes from uncomfortable to unfair when there is only one way to play the particular shot. Of course, there are exceptions, but when I look at a hole I can determine what the shot requirements are and then realizing the weaknesses of my game I will try to minimize putting myself in a position to expose my weakness. If I don't have any options it could become unfair, but like others have said thats golf. Of all the listed scenarios the only one I dislike is the forced layup on a long hole. Great post Jeff and please don't lower the bar to accomodate the LCD.

[Dave_Miller]

Uncomfortable is not necessarily unfair.  

When trees block tee shots or create playability hazards that should not exist then it could be deemed inappropriate and the tree or trees should be removed.  

I believe it was Donald Ross in his book who indicated that while we all love trees when they begin to interfere with play then they should be removed.

The 11th hole at Charles River is an example.  239 yd par 3 with two large willows guarding  the right side of the fairway and blocking the marshland on the right.  The willows bolck the green sufficiently enough that the pin cannot be seen when placed right side if the tees are anywhere off the left or the left middle of the tee.

Should these be removed?  This is a very thorny question. Ultimately the membership voted to keep the willows but they are clearly impeding play at this point.  What should be done?  Probably they should come out, open up the right side bring the potential hazzard of the marsh more into play and open up the green.

Anyone have any thoughts on this.

Best
Dave

[Allan Long]

Being uncomfortable about a shot does not mean it is unfair. What some may construe as unfair to them, may not be true to others. I have never liked the use of the word unfair, because I think it is often used in the wrong context. In the case of the play of a hole, the situation is the same for everyone. Are there shots that some people can pull off that others cannot, yes. That does not make something unfair, that makes it a challenge. Can course conditions or weather make something unfair? I would think so. But when someone tells me that a certain hole is unfair, I would be willing to bet that the majority of time, they don't play that certain hole well because they are uncomfortable with some aspect of it, rather than it being unfair.

[A_Clay_Man]

Allan- We've debated the definition of "unfair" and I believe we concluded that the only thing unfair was a cup on the 14th at Pebble Beach in the middle of the slope with a greenspeed over 8.

Semi-kidding but you were eloquent in expressing my feelings about the limitations of unfair.

[George Pazin]

I thought this thread was going to be about Wolf Creek...

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Uncomfortable is fine as long as not unfair.  

One of your examples had a right pin a tree and a lake?  I have no problem with any of these issues until the tree knocks the ball into the lake while forcing a shot at the pin.  The tree causes an unintended penalty while requiring a player to make a shot.  Had the tree simply knocked the ball down it seems fair.  But to knock the ball down and cause a penalty would seem to severe.

The risk of the penalty would force me away from the shot to the pin.  The wise shot may be to hit away from the pin postion anyway, but the interest is in the indecision as my ego beckons me toward certain disaster.  The tree would be enough to override the ego.  

Discomfort is part of the game.  No matter how much my game and scores improve, I always seem to find ways to leave my comfort zone.  To go low, a player must force that comfort zone. To go really low, risk becomes a neccesity.