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Tony Petersen

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Re:Massacre at Barona Creek
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2007, 02:12:40 PM »
The last time I played Barona Creek was last summer 1 days
 after they had hosted the Southern Cal. PGA Section Championship. The conditions were hard and firm, the greens hard and fast... TOUGH putting, to say the least. After watching a little of the action, it's obvious that they have softened up the conditions for the Nationwide Champ.  Not sure why they can't play the same course that I played, but the end result is low scores and more than a few eagles... And yes, those guys are really f**king good!!! ;)
Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Massacre at Barona Creek
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2007, 02:21:07 PM »
The last time I played Barona Creek was last summer 1 days
 after they had hosted the Southern Cal. PGA Section Championship. The conditions were hard and firm, the greens hard and fast... TOUGH putting, to say the least. After watching a little of the action, it's obvious that they have softened up the conditions for the Nationwide Champ.  Not sure why they can't play the same course that I played, but the end result is low scores and more than a few eagles... And yes, those guys are really f**king good!!! ;)

Well, this would seem to support John's theory.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jim Nugent

Re:Massacre at Barona Creek
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2007, 03:00:06 PM »

I don't think it is outrageous at all to claim that the Nationwide has become adept at making their players appear to be better than they are by tinkering with the courses.  The evidence will show a larger number of 60's being shot on a second rate tour.

One way to get an indirect measure of that is to compare scoring averages.  (I don't feel like counting scores in the 60s.)  

Nationwide:  6 players averaged under 70.  PGA Tour: 1 player averaged under 70.  That's using unadjusted, or actual, scoring.  

GIR: another big difference.  34 golfers on the Nationwide averaged over 70%.  On the PGA tour only 3 golfers averaged over 70%.  

Either the courses are easier or the course setups are easier.  Or both.  

 

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Massacre at Barona Creek
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2007, 03:45:38 PM »
When the Nationwide Tour played in my home town of Livermore at the end of March 2007, the winner was at even par and a couple of shots clear of the field on a course that is right around 7,000 yards long. The greens were pretty firm but not unreceptive. The elevation changes, rough and wind were the biggest challenges faced by the contestants.

Certainly not all of the NationwideTour's events feature those types of conditions, but I don't think you can completely generalize the course set-ups faced by these player's as "easy" week after week.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 03:46:52 PM by Kyle Henderson »
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Massacre at Barona Creek
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2007, 06:26:40 PM »
From very good sources, the course is not playing as difficult as possible due to annual overseeding of fairways and rough. In addition, becuase of the fires, they were forced to water much more than desired.  Also, this is not really the hardest course to begin with--however, that does nothing to take away from the architectural merits of the layout--my friends love the course but expect to shoot at least 4-5 under each round.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Massacre at Barona Creek
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2007, 06:31:51 PM »
RMD:

Thanks for the info.

I just have one question... does there EXIST a course that your friends find generally difficult?

I ask because this course is rated 75.3.  If your friends routinely expect to shoot 4-5 under, does that mean they are all +6-8 indices?

I don't ask that in a smartass way - I fully expect an answer to be "yes, that's about what their indices would be, if they had them."

But then that gets back to my main question.. if this course - rated 75.3 - isn't that hard to begin with, then what course is?

TH

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Massacre at Barona Creek
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2007, 10:24:53 PM »
Here's some information about the course conditions at Barona Creek from the superintendent Sandy Clark, CGCS.

"Fairways are much narrower than usual but still fair."

"Rough is between 4 and 12 inches depending on where you land."

"The greens haven’t been watered in over a week."

"The greens are only soft because we have had heavy fog delays each day."

"The greens are stimping 12 today and will increase over the next two days."

"The course is not soft since we are only watering hot spots.  It is a 6 week old golf course from overseeding to today."  

His comment on the scores, "The players are pretty darn good!"

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Massacre at Barona Creek
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2007, 11:40:05 PM »
OK, here's a first had report after witnessing play today:

Fairways have indeed been narrowed, but they are all closer to 40 than 30 yards wide; this would be considered generous by PGA Tour standards. Any narrower and the bunkers would be way too far inside the rough line.

Rough is a nonfactor. It is annual rye overseed and completely whispy, not too deep just off the fairway (1-2 inches) and 6 inches deep at its worst. You would have to stray very far off the centerline to encounter a severe lie.

There is almost no greenside rough; many closely mowed aprons which lead to chipping areas. One would be unlucky to be buried deep in the hay just off the green.

Pin placements were 6 easy, 6 medium, 6 hard. This is obviously not the PGA Tour, where they have resorted to 18 hard these days. I've played Torrey the day after the event and they are all tough there. Todays difficult pins were: 5 right over the front left bunker just past the downslope, 7 front right just on the green, 9 just over the front bunker just past the downslope, 13 far left about 8 feet from the edge, 16 front right, 17 front right also.

The greens aren't any where near mushy, but players are making ball marks and stopping the ball downwind out of the rough with little problem. They're rolling beautifully; if you pick the right line you will make quite a few putts.

I followed John Riegger (16th on the ML) and Argentinian Miguel Carballa who won the Panama Event. Both players struck the ball well; Barbolio barely missed 1 fairway as his tee shot kicked a litte right when it landed on #2, he ended up in the first cut which was inconsequential. Riegger went through the faiway twice on 12 and 15; both times he hit PW for his second and had little trouble stopping the ball. Both players reached the par 5 1st and 13th and made birdie. On the 580 yard 17th their 300 yard drives forced them to layup, Barbolio converted his birdie. Carballo birdied 8 and Riegger 9 for their only non par 5 birdies. Carballo went through the 6th with a 5 iron and ended up in the back bunker; even landing in the fringe he almost rolled off the green for their only bogey of the day. Both players could have been 5-6 shots lower if they made any putts; they each shot 68.

In summary this is the anti US Open setup, wide fairways with little penal rough allowing the players to display their skills. Although the greens are by no means easy to read or execute on, putts and scores can be made. Shackelford must be smiling back in LA!



« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 09:54:57 AM by Pete Lavallee »
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Massacre at Barona Creek
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2007, 07:03:51 PM »
This course is very much misrated as far as difficulty. It should be closer to a 73 rating and the slope should be around 130.  As far as difficult courses, Spyglass is always a consistent challenge.  Riviera never gets torched when tour players play it under normal conditions--member play set-up.

Jim Nugent

Re:Massacre at Barona Creek
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2007, 12:51:11 AM »
Riviera never gets torched when tour players play it under normal conditions--member play set-up.

Yet the pro's have torched Riviera many times.  Do they set the tournament up easier than for member play?  

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Massacre at Barona Creek
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2007, 01:00:56 AM »
Robert,

I don't think the formula would ever allow a 7,400 yard course to be rated at 73.0!

And frankly, I just don't think it's quite that easy.

But it is a classic example of the fact that length alone simply cannot challenge top-level professionals.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Massacre at Barona Creek
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2007, 10:38:21 AM »
I promise I won't bring this up again.

Tournaments have been held on 7,000 plus courses since the mid 1920's. Up until sometime in the late '80's, those were long courses.

But 7400 yard courses today are short. Very short. In relative terms they play something like a 6500 yard course would have in 1965. The math is pretty easy.

With the distances all pros (even the shorter ones) hit it today, courses don't play long until you get to 8,000 yards or so. At sea level.

If protecting against par is important to you (it's not to me), then a Barona at 7400 yards is not helping your cause. In fact, it's hurting. My guess is that to the extent Barona is resistant to scoring, it is for reasons other than its length.

BTW, I love the look of the course on TV.

Further BTW, it doesn't look to me like they are tearing up the place as the early rounds seemed to presage.

Bob  

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Massacre at Barona Creek
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2007, 04:35:17 PM »
You guys miss another point: the players on the Nationwide play for broke, try to "go red" every hole.

You really can't make a great living on the Nationwide tour, only the top guys make decent money, and they'll be getting their PGA tour card next year. The rest are trying to keep their head above water and keep their dream alive. (By the way, I hear it is the same on the Florida mini tour.)

And the courses they play are not Old Dead Guy courses, but rather,many are resort/development courses looking to build their reputation, so they are happy to have a Nationwide event. Therefore, I think you are going to have FAR less eavy rough, and the Nationwide has become a bombers tour.

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