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PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
what makes Olde Kinderhook good?
« on: October 30, 2007, 06:21:46 PM »
Perhaps I am wrong, but this course of Mr. Jones seems to be well respected here, one of the few/only one of his designs that seems to garner (almost) unanimous GCA praise...why?
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:what makes Olde Kinderhook good?
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2007, 06:24:07 PM »
Have you played it?

Rees told me it was one of his most underrated courses.
Mr Hurricane

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:what makes Olde Kinderhook good?
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2007, 06:24:59 PM »
Have you played it?

Rees told me it was one of his most underrated courses.

I have not Jim but would like to someday
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:what makes Olde Kinderhook good?
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2007, 06:27:46 PM »
Me neither so let's let someone that has tell us why it is good or underrated.
Mr Hurricane

Mike Sweeney

Re:what makes Olde Kinderhook good?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2007, 06:43:06 PM »
1. Like most favored courses  on this site, it is a very good to great piece of land. Big Broad features, spread out over large acreage with no houses and just a very cute and attractive farm touching a few holes. A good piece of land goes a long way.

2. A Japanese owner that appears to be disinterested in design. I am just guessing but he instructions were probably go build a great course.

3. From one trip, a limited set of environmental restrictions that were incorporated into the course and created interest rather than problems.

4. No they are not hairy bunkers, but they are not the Rees cups and saucers that Mike Cirba loves to post!

Here is an old thread with pics.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=14453&start=0

I was near there yesterday, but had no time, my host was in Hilton Head and it was 37 degrees.  :'(

Mike_Cirba

Re:what makes Olde Kinderhook good?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2007, 07:49:40 PM »
The biggest reason Olde Kinderhook is so tremendous is that it literally turns the modern design paradigm of shot containment on its head.

Rather than concave features that inhibit roll and chance, nearly all the features at OK are convex, and thus require some real planning and execution, as even fairways can shed balls quickly if the shot isn't shaped properly, or lands in the inappropriate parts of the fairway.  

Bunkering is sunken mostly well below the elevated greens, and almost is Raynoresque to an extent in look and playability.   The greens themselves, while not exhibiting quite the level of variability and sophistication of the rest of the course, still present the player with the Jonesian challenge of placing the ball in the correct "section".  

As mentioned, it's also a broad landscape, with big features, lots of variety of holes, some very unexpected shots (including a blind second on a par five), and is wholly enjoyable.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:what makes Olde Kinderhook good?
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2007, 10:06:05 PM »
I tried to get that job many years ago.  I can attest that it was a really good piece of property ... a bit steep in spots, but not too much.  But, the owner is/was interested in golf course design -- I'm curious why Mike S. thinks that's a bad thing.

Mike Sweeney

Re:what makes Olde Kinderhook good?
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2007, 06:18:51 AM »
But, the owner is/was interested in golf course design -- I'm curious why Mike S. thinks that's a bad thing.

I think it "was" as he is more into mountain climbing or similar now?

Not a bad thing, Rees does a bunch of housing communities such as Currituck Club and I would assume that it is a nice change of pace for an architect to get a "sand hills" type of job rather than worry about who is getting the best land - the golf or the houses. I would assume that owners who are "into design" that like artificial water holes are probably not your first choice?

Comes back to the same old question of what is good design.

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:what makes Olde Kinderhook good?
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2007, 08:41:05 AM »
Paul

I'll confirm all the comments on the broad feeling of the site. It's an old farm w/ good movement on the land and it's never cramped, never repetative. The routing is intimate.

I'd also add the greens are very well done. Very good movement good strategic bunkering.

You should try and see it.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:what makes Olde Kinderhook good?
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2007, 09:19:18 AM »
A second to all of the above.

From a non architectural standpoint, it is a very quiet place to play . Put a few yards on it, tighten up the fairways a bit, and it could handle the best players in the world, no doubt.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike_Cirba

Re:what makes Olde Kinderhook good?
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2007, 10:47:21 AM »
A second to all of the above.

From a non architectural standpoint, it is a very quiet place to play . Put a few yards on it, tighten up the fairways a bit, and it could handle the best players in the world, no doubt.

John and Jim are both spot on.

It's one of the only courses I know that is fun to play for the average hack and which could be setup pretty easily to host a US Open and play tough as bricks.  If it were closer to Manhattan it would get much more press and consideration.

Quite the feat, actually.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2007, 10:47:54 AM by MPCirba »

scott_wood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:what makes Olde Kinderhook good?
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2007, 06:25:33 PM »
large expanse of land on which Rees designed a wide variety of holes....a good deal of up and down but most members walk, most holes have some "bend" ( both ways), good mix of short(er) and "long" holes (602 to a windswept raised "island" green), and very challenging green complexes, most with multiple pin locations...no obviously "weak"/uninteresting holes in the bunch....and I've played many of Rees' others...

but not all...heading to Bandon in early Dec, probably won't detour to Sandpines, though Mike C really urged me to   ;D

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