[George Pazin]

There's been a few people who have barked about the course not being very playable save for the likes of better players. Thanks ...

Ruff ruff.

[Wyatt Halliday]

Matt,

Question uno:

Pacific: 8
Black Mesa: 6
Bandon Dunes: 3
Bandon Trails: 3

Dos:

Handicaps for the group:
2
5
5
5
12
15
17

For what it's worth, scores of our group were overwhelmingly better at Black Mesa than anywhere else. I attribute it to the playable areas not having excessive rough.

When you factor in that everyone in our group (save myself) visited from either South Texas or South Louisiana,  it is obvious that sidehill/downhill lies do not come into play for them.....ever.

For example: Having to hit a flat, 170yd approach out of 4 inch bluegrass rough is difficult enough for most people. Add an odd (uphill/downhill/sidehill) lie to the mix and you have something altogether different. The way Black Mesa incorporated the short grass on its corridors allowed for a reasonable chance to get the ball somewhere near the green. Everywhere else it was hack and hope.

[Matt_Ward]

Wyatt:

Would the majority of your group assess the courses in the same manner ?

One other thing -- what gives Pac Dunes the edge in your book. I see BM and PD as being a flat-foot tie ?

Thanks ...

P.S. One final question -- what tee lengths did you play the various courses (e.g. tips, middle, front, etc, etc) ?

[Wyatt Halliday]

Matt,

I'll put it this way....In terms of difficulty ONLY, the group consensus from most to least difficult was as follows:

1 - UNM South
1a - Paa-Ko Ridge
3 - Twin Warriors
4 - Sandia
5 - Black Mesa

Pacific gets the edge for two main reasons. I think that Pacific has the greatest set of par threes I have ever played. No two are routed in the same direction, they vary in length and required shot type, and the bunkering is more visually appealing. Plus, I had already seen so many drop shot par threes last week that it wore some of the luster off of 8 and 15 for me. That is not to take anything away from the par three holes at BM (4 & 11 were exceptional in my book, and 8 & 15 were very good) but you are asking me to nitpick. I also give Pacific the edge due its ability to induce the Boo Weekley pucker factor on tee shots. If your goal is to score at Pacific, you really have to tighten it up on 2,3,4,7,15,16, & 18. My thoughts on this could change upon repeat visits due my not playing the correct set of tees...See the answer to your third question for more detail.

For your third question, I had previously asked about which set of tees to play from at Black Mesa specifically. Everyone played from the blue tees with the exception of the 17 handicap who played from the white tees. Everyone had their best rounds (twice over with 36 holes) on Black Mesa. Conditions were nearly the same at all of the courses except for the last round at BM when a storm kicked the wind up to around 15-20 sustained. I now wish I had played at least one round from the back tees to experience the full effect of the tee shots at 7,9, and 10.

[Matt_Ward]

Wyatt:

Your group actually believes BM was the easiest of the courses played in NM !

I'm shocked -- George Pazin whines all the time that BM is so un-user-friendly.

P.S. All kidding aside -- I wonder if your assessment at Pac was influenced by wind conditions because until the last round at BM you had mild conditions.

One other personal note -- I find BM to be the most challenging of all the NM courses you listed. I've played them all a few times and see the driving requirements at BM to be utterly superb -- a bit better (when splitting hairs) than Pac Dunes. In fact, I see the green complexes at BM to be no less than Pac.

[Andy Troeger]

For what its worth I think Twin Warriors is the toughest of the bunch, but none of them are easy. Sandia would probably be the easiest of the bunch for me, although I've scored better at Black Mesa than a couple of the others generally.

General comment: for those visiting looking for 4-5 courses to play I would at least consider Pueblo de Cochiti and Santa Ana, especially in lieu of Twin Warriors and Sandia. I personally like Cochiti better than the other three, but I'm pretty sure Matt will say its the weakest of the bunch. In any case they are worth considering if nothing else.

[George Pazin]

Wyatt:

Your group actually believes BM was the easiest of the courses played in NM !

I'm shocked -- George Pazin whines all the time that BM is so un-user-friendly.

While I should simply quietly accept the jibe - and I do accept it - I feel like I have to point out that I never said Paa Ko or any of the others were any more playable or less playable than BM for the high handicapper (though my own personal experience would bear out PK being more playable, I'd have to think more about that).

I believe most desert/canyon style courses are not very playable for the lesser golfer, though I've only seen 8 or 10, so I'm not quite willing to generalize that to all.

 

[Wyatt Halliday]

George,

Don't go away quietly, it's not as fun!

As for the difficulty, I think everyone had their fair share of marginal shots into the desert surrounds. The difference was the 1/2 to 1 shot penalty provided by the rough at the other courses. A slightly wayward shot at BM that found grass could be controlled more than than the chop out of the rough at the others. On more than on occasion it even morphed into a shot from rough resulting in a lost ball in the desert scrub.

[Adam Clayman]

George, Perhaps you could just hit til your happy?

The narrowness of turf corridors in the southwest is inherent in the environs due to water issue.

Micro-Managing the surrounds, in key areas, is the only way to make everyone happy. Even our beloved Wild Horse suffers from George's complaint, because for some, super wide is just not wide enough. The penalty is proportional though. If you hit it that far off line, you do deserve the thrill of recovery, if you can find it.

[George Pazin]

George,

Don't go away quietly, it's not as fun!

Wyatt, we've (we on the site, not we you and I) been having this argument for years now, and I'm just tired of hearing my opinion is invalid or dishonest. I can deal with someone disagreeing - I expect that on a discussion site - not the rest. It's just getting so old and boring.

[Wyatt Halliday]

George,

Agreed.

I've seen the venom and personal attacks in my short time here. I think that anyone taking the time to post deserves respect regardless of how heated the debate becomes. It is because of the patience by many here that I have come to learn the terms Biarritz, Redan, and Eden that I was otherwise unfamiliar with.

However, due to the nature of the forum and its esteemed participants (yourself included), I expect to be called out when there is something I do not understand, and I welcome other viewpoints on topics I am unfamiliar with. I will always stand my ground and defend myself, but have yet to be the victim of an attack. You can hold your breath though, it should happen soon. Maybe I'll start a thread on the diversity of the RTJ trail.

[Matt_Ward]

Guys, I have to say this -- with any serious wind blowing Black Mesa is easily the toughest of all courses in New Mexico. The reality is that shaping shots and getting to preferred landing areas at BM is far more challenging than the others which are, for the most part, wider and often time less intense in terms of the penalties you will likely encounter.

One other note -- when people disagree the notion that people on the other side are doing so personally is just rubbish and utterly silly. No doubt things can get heated -- but this site is one for open and robust comments. So long as people stay on topic / point then there's plenty of healthy give & take for all concerned.

***

Wyatt:

You may have missed my last question to you ... All kidding aside -- I wonder if your assessment at Pac was influenced by wind conditions because until the last round at BM you had mild conditions.

In regards to putting green contours I see BM as no less the equal to Pac. Ditto on the wherewithal for people to recover when missing greens. BM is quite intense whenever you short-side yourself.

I salute you in saying BM would be worth six plays out of 20. That's a good deal more than many who salute the layout but never even remotely place it near the upper echelon layouts.

Thanks ...

[Wyatt Halliday]

Matt,

I don't believe the conditions influenced my decision one way or another. We were somehow fortunate enough to have two completely different winds at Pacific last year.  A prevailing North on Thursday, and a South on Friday.

While I agree that Black Mesa has superb greens, the difference is that it is easier to hit and spin a 60* wedge when you are shortsided simply due to the difference in grass type (I hope that answers your question). Also, it may have been luck but I only had one bunker shot through 36 holes. Again, and I can't stress this enough, I probably should have played the back tees. I was just so damned frightened by the feedback I received (and the afternoon weather approaching) that I decided the Blue's were appropriate.

By the way, I thought 17 & 18 were the most difficult holes on the course. The tee shot just didn't fit my eye on either which is odd because each hole turns a different direction.

[billb]

Bill,
My order would go...

1. Paa-Ko
1a. Black Mesa

(big gap)

3. UNM Championship
4. Pinon Hills
5. Pueblo de Cochiti (btw ABQ & Santa Fe)

(small gap)
Sandia, Santa Ana, Twin Warriors, Marty Sanchez, Taos.

Hi Andy:
I finally made the trip last week, played (in this order) Black Mesa, Santa Ana, Paa-Ko, and then The Hide Out in Utah.

I *really* liked Paa-Ko, Santa Ana was just okay, The Hide Out was excellent although not in great condition so late in the fall.

Black Mesa was fun but somewhat dissapointing, maybe that was due to all the rave reviews here on GCA and my high expectations.

Maybe I just haven't played enough "modern" golf courses to appreciate (understand?) BM. Or maybe it I need to play it a couple more times. What got me were the blind tee shots over piles of rocks and grass (at least they put up aiming poles most of the time), the severly contoured greens, and the nasty rough so close to the greens.

Thanks again for your advice.

[Pat Brockwell]

Bill, Wake up and crawl out of the big manufactured box golf course.  Piles of rock and grass?  You were playing golf out in the natural world and missed the experience.  Black Mesa is laid gently on a harsh landscape.  I'm guessing you haven't played enough on the old classics where the bulldozer didn't rule. If you're looking for the course that lets you show up and have an easy time of it stick to the pablum they serve up at the Mediocreville Muni. Hope this isn't too harsh, my margarita is almost gone.  Next time (if you honor us with a next time) give me a heads up, I'll show you some fun stuff. Pat.

[billb]

Bill, Wake up and crawl out of the big manufactured box golf course.  Piles of rock and grass?  You were playing golf out in the natural world and missed the experience.  Black Mesa is laid gently on a harsh landscape.  I'm guessing you haven't played enough on the old classics where the bulldozer didn't rule. If you're looking for the course that lets you show up and have an easy time of it stick to the pablum they serve up at the Mediocreville Muni. Hope this isn't too harsh, my margarita is almost gone.  Next time (if you honor us with a next time) give me a heads up, I'll show you some fun stuff. Pat.

You are guessing wrong. Have another margarita.

[Andy Troeger]

Bill,
I would encourage you to play it again, but you are not the first on this board or otherwise that were not amazed by Black Mesa. If you get the chance to make it back down take Pat up on his offer or I'd be happy to play as well, I don't make it up there as often as I'd like.

No question that Black Mesa is a difficult golf course. While I look at some of the blind shots and contoured greens and see variety and character, it doesn't shock me that not everyone shares my view. That's part of the art of GCA, not everyone has to like the same thing. The golf world is better for the variety of courses that exist. I'd still encourage you to give it another try at some point.

Glad you liked Paa-Ko Ridge. I played it once on vacation before I moved here a few years ago and before I had played all that many top level courses and loved it. I always wondered though once I played some other highly considered places if I would go back to Paa-Ko and decide it wasn't as special as I remembered. A bit to my surprise, I liked it better when I played it again.

Granted, I liked Black Mesa better the second time as well  

[cary lichtenstein]

Pacific Dunes is clearly easier to score on than Black Mesa.

I had 2 rounds at BM and shot 81/77 and 2 rounds at PD and shot 71/74. BM gives rise to double bogeys easily.

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