What woos you?

[Jerry Lemons]

 I pondered reading the Doak/Nicklaus thread - what do average golfers really like the most in a golf course?  The artistic effort?  strategy? location on the planet? the fun they had that day? playability? course conditions?

The reason I ask is that a recent client told me “a golf course should be pretty”, which  I agree, but one does not play on “pretty” or “color”. I think it must be more.

I think a great strategic design that has no eye appeal cannot be great… the same goes for an artistic course that has no strategy. The balance of numerous principles must then become most important. All golf courses don’t have ocean views, parkland beauty, and mountainous backdrops. We don’t get that lucky all the time.

WE here at GCA have the tendency to add another principle “historic value” to the equation.  I think there are 10 categories you raters have in rating courses.

Does one particular item have more emphasis than the others? Do golfers out of this circle believe the same as those of us in the circle?

Do all parts have as much importance as the other and none more so than the other?

What do you think woos you about a course the most and what woos the average Joe?

Jerry

[Tom Huckaby]

Jerry:  those are all great thoughts, and great questions.  Let's just get one part of this VERY clear:  most of the opinions and preferences expressed in this forum are VERY VERY VERY out of touch with what the common man, average Joe golfer likes and appreciates.

We're all about subtlety and strategy and the like in here; out in the real world, that might notice that if pointed out to them, but the main things they want are pretty views, tough challenges to brag about, and great conditions.  That overgeneralizes for sure, but it's also not wrong.

So you surely cannot please everyone.  You guys have tough jobs.

 

[Craig Sweet]

Me...the mower stripes  

A golfer....the condition

[Adam Clayman]

Jerry, Your post reminds me of Reilly's "Missing Links", In it he concludes the golf course shouldn't be about any of those things you mentioned. It should be about the people who enjoy the sport.

The fundementals that lead to inspired golf are not formulaic.

As for your rater questions...One category can have any weight the rater decides to give it in the overall rating, at GW.  

[Jerry Lemons]

Jerry:  those are all great thoughts, and great questions.  Let's just get one part of this VERY clear:  most of the opinions and preferences expressed in this forum are VERY VERY VERY out of touch with what the common man, average Joe golfer likes and appreciates.

Maybe I should'nt hang out here  then as it may distort my thinking

[Brian Noser]

I thought about this the other day when my dad and I were talking about courses in the St. Louis Area. I say my dad is the average golfer in general. He shoots 85-90 Retired and plays 2-3 times a week somewhere different everyweek.
 We were discussing courses and as far as public courses go I think Gateway Natl. is the #1 public course in the area. First thing out of my dads mouth is, it is flat and not pretty. I say but what about the course look at the strategy and variety of holes?? Nothing.. he says and they are always on the path overthere too. Tapawingo is much prettier, he says.. What I am trying to say is that I believe the average golfer only cares about pretty and conditions.  kind of what Huck said.  For me Pretty is good as well, but it has to be a good course fun to play, different options etc.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jerry,

NGF periodically surveys golfers as to why they play high end public courses. They are obviously allowed to pick from more than one, so the results don't equal 100%.  Rather, its the number of golfers who think its an important factor, not the only or even the most important factor.

Results from 2005-

Scenery and Aesthetics – 85%
Service – 79%
Golf Cart Quality/Cleanliness – 78%
Clubhouse and Locker room – 77%
Overall Golf Maintenance – 77%
Greens Conditions – 73%
Food and Beverage – 71%
On Course Restrooms and Drinking Water – 66%
Tee Time Availability – 61%
Pace of Play – 57%
Convenience of Course Location – 45%
Name of Golf Course Architect – 3%

Please note the last, and the fact that NGF doesn't think to ask about strategy.

Just a guess, but I bet as price goes down, the number playing for convenience of location goes up.

I also wonder if the cart girls are factored in under scenery and aesthetics or food and beverage......

[Jerry Lemons]

Just a guess, but I bet as price goes down, the number playing for convenience of location goes up.

I also wonder if the cart girls are factored in under scenery and aesthetics or food and beverage......

Jeff,
I too think price would have been important if they had ask. I do not know many that do not ask cost when we pick courses to play.
Cart girls do become a topic but like the course they seem to be ever changing.

Brian, since strategy did not even make the list, I doubt that anyone cares other than us about it. When was the last time you heard "lets go play (enter course name)  because it requires me to think and the strategy is awesome?

Lets face it, the biggest percentage of golfer want a fun place to play that doesnt beat them up and they can "enjoy the walk"

[Kalen Braley]

Damn it...

I hate to admit when Huck is right, but IMO he really is right on the money on this.  

I have tried talking to several of my friends about this, but they only care about how pretty it is, or the conditioning, or how far they can bash thier driver.  Mentioning things like strategy and options of the tee will just bring blank stares or quips of "whatever, just hit your ball"

Its frustrating when I'm playing a nice course because I really like to observe this stuff and bounce it off people when I'm actually playing and can see it right in front of me.

[Jerry Lemons]

Kalen, I think that is called an Epiphany.
I find it most difficult also to discuss strategy with most golfers. But tht does not mean it is not important, It is like the finish on a good wine, not sure why or what it is, but it is good!

[Steve Kline]

What woos me (not in any order or always necessary but enough of them have to be there or the course won't pass muster)...

Amazing views - wheter those of the ocean at Pebble Beach, the town of St. Andrews, or the holes perfectly laying on the land at Pine Valley

Smooth putting surfaces - don't have to be fast and the rest of course conditioning isn't that important to me

A test against the elements - my most enjoyable rounds have been with significant wind demanding creativity in my shot making

Strategy - although this isn't as important when I play a course one time because I don'e get to test different strategies and figure out which works best

Pace of play - I don't want to be waiting on people all day

A challenging course - that doesn't mean long. Many short courses are challenging even for longer hitters or good players if the architect has done his/her job correctly

A great match with friends

Caddies and/or walking - carts ruin everything


That list from the NGF is amazing to me. More people worry about the quality and cleanliness of their cart than they do the condition of the greens or the pace of play. Obviously I'm nothing like the average golfer.

[Rick Shefchik]

Maybe it's helpful to approach this question from the opposite direction: What turns you off?

I really like elevation changes, but I don't want to play a course that is so steep that I can't walk it comfortably. I love contour on the greens, but not so much that putting becomes silly guesswork. I like thoughtful bunkering that makes me stop and think before I pull a club, but not excessive bunkering that turns fairways into bowling alleys, or enormous bunkers in which I have to rake 15 or more steps. I like the occasional water hazard and don't mind a forced carry, but I don't enjoy target golf in a wetland.

[Bart Bradley]

I certainly agree with most everyone's posts on this subject...conditioning, shot values, the company I am with..

But, if I only get 1 crack at a course, I have to confess that the weather often affects my feeling about my round a great deal.  Sometimes, a strong breeze has enhanced my day..At Turnberry, I got all 4 seasons on 18 holes and it just seemed right.  Once I played at a private Nicklaus course in the mountains, and a fog/mist hung over the place for the first 6-7 holes...nothing could have been more beautiful.  This was my first trip to the course and I was so taken by the environment, I missed some of the weaknesses of the design...subsequent trips have shown me that although it is an enjoyable course, it has significant flaws.  Anyway, sadly, sometimes the perfect weather woos me.

Bart

[Steve Kline]

I forgot to add that I hate losing golf balls. So any course with lots of water hazards or tall fescue gets knocked down pretty fast in my book.

At the U.S. Mid Am I played two practice rounds, two stroke play rounds and one match with the same ball.

[Peter Pallotta]

All good posts.

Jerry - my answer is kind of vague, sort of intentionally so.

I like a golf course where I can "breathe".  In other words, let me have some "room"; let me have some "time"; let me "be myself".

Also, while I think I'd like having a few drinks with a golf course architect, I don't want to "meet him" out on his golf course.

Peter

[Bill Gayne]

Around this time of day it only takes the promise of cold beer to be wooed.

[Tim Leahy]

I think challenge and conditioning are most important. If the course is in good shape and challenges you it can take your mind off the views. I wouldn't call Rustic Canyon a pretty course, but it challenges you and is usually in good shape and except for Matt is pretty highly regarded.

[Garland Bayley]

Movement in the ground especially if well used in the design.

Lack of large ponds or similarly sized water hazards. I love a small stream used strategically in a course. It is not out there catching every stray ball, but just a few of the ones where the golfer challenges it and fails.