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Mark Manuel

NCR vs CD or Tom Doak was right again...
« on: August 29, 2007, 06:57:29 PM »
OK, I posted a note about NCR South and Crystal Downs both being on the honorable mention list of old Top 100 rankings and questioned why CD is now where it is when NCR is out of the 100.

I played Crystal Downs for the first time yesterday, really windy day as a side note, and with the 7th hole a question mark for me I have to agree that it is a great golf course and ahead of NCR South.  Can't quite figure out what is going on with that hole and wonder how to play it even in hindsight.  Although I am sure many will chime in and be more than happy to tell me the proper way.

I enjoy Dick Wilson, but he didn't do anything like this.  Great experience and I was lucky to have the chance to play the course.

Can't say the same for Arcadia Bluffs, five and a half hours was Tobacco Roadesque in poor rangering.  
The golf ball is like a woman, you have to talk it on the off chance it might listen.

TEPaul

Re:NCR vs CD or Tom Doak was right again...
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2007, 07:15:16 PM »
"Can't quite figure out what is going on with that hole and wonder how to play it even in hindsight.  Although I am sure many will chime in and be more than happy to tell me the proper way."

What do you mean you can't figure out how to play it?

The deal is to get your ball into the right section of that horseshoe green where the pin is.

What's so hard to figure out about that?

But if you're talking about how to putt the ball from one side of the horseshoe to the pin on the other side of the horseshoe that's a different matter.

The basic answer to that is you just shouldn't have put your golf ball on the wrong side of the horseshoe green to the pin.  ;)

Or if you're talking about the tee shot just play an iron or utility club to the end of the fairway before it drops down. That's what most everyone does. It doesn't leave you far from that horseshoe green on either end or side.

What's a whole lot harder to figure out how to play at CD from the tee and on isn't #7, in my opinion, it's #5. Add to that #17 or even #15 or #8.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2007, 07:18:20 PM by TEPaul »

Mark Manuel

Re:NCR vs CD or Tom Doak was right again...
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2007, 07:59:08 PM »
Well, #5 was a driver and a lob wedge.  Nothing hard about that one.  Two good shots and an easy 4.

The golf ball is like a woman, you have to talk it on the off chance it might listen.

Tom_Doak

Re:NCR vs CD or Tom Doak was right again...
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2007, 08:15:10 PM »
Mark:

I was out there yesterday myself, playing with Mike Young and with the club pro, Fred Muller.  If you'd known you could have apologized in person ... no sweat, though.

As Tom Paul said, the play on #7 is to lay up to the end of the fairway and go from there.  It's 195 yards to the end of the fairway; I hit 1-iron there yesterday but I suspect it's less for you.

Billsteele

Re:NCR vs CD or Tom Doak was right again...
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2007, 10:13:04 PM »
Mark-Let me make sure I have this right: (1) an excellent Mackenzie course trumps a very good Dick Wilson design and (2) Tom Doak knows what he is talking about. WHO WOULD'VE THUNK IT?

Seriously, I think very few people would jump NCR-South over the more celebrated designs of the old dead guys. However, I have to tell you that I played NCR-South for the first time last week and I was shocked at how good it was. Based on my limited sample of Dick Wilson designs (his work at Scioto, Coldstream and now NCR-South), it is his best effort by far out of that group.

The other Ohio Wilson work left me with the impression that he tried to impose Florida design elements into his work (the man made water features at Coldstream, the totally out of place 8th at Scioto with its peninsula fairway and island green). At NCR-South, he crafted an intelligent, well routed challenging parkland golf course with nary a water hazard. The stretch of holes which begins the back (the uphill then downhill par five 10th to a green with a vicious false front, the plateau situated 11th with its narrow green, the majestic par four 12th with its downhill tee shot that dares you to challenge the bunker on the left to get the best angle of approach to the elevated green and the par three 13th with a green set at a sloping left to right angle away from the tee) is very strong indeed. I also liked the precipitous uphill approach to the 3rd hole and the back to back par fives on the front

I think one could make a decent case that it should be included in the lower reaches of any top 100 list. However, courses like NCR tend to show how silly and arbitrary these rankings are. If one skipped NCR-South because it is not a consensus top 100 course, they would miss a solid, challenging golf course on a terrific piece of property. In fact, of Ohio courses built after 1950, I can only think of two that I would put above NCR-South: The Golf Club (by a wide margin) and Muirfield Village (and it's much closer than I thought before my trip to Dayton).

So, what I am trying to say is that it is possible for a course like NCR-South to be outclassed by courses such as Crystal Downs but also underrated at the same time. For years, Crystal Downs flew under the radar. My understanding is that few people knew about it and fewer people had seen it. However, that changed over time as more people championed its greatness (Tom Doak chiefly among them).

Western Ohio has plenty of courses that fall under that un- or underappreciated umbrella. How many people know about Moraine, Miami Valley or Springfield? Top 100 courses? No, but very good and a load of fun to play. In fact, Western Ohio seems to have a number of good Donald Ross designs that garner little attention. I have resolved to venture outside of Central Ohio to seek these out. There are so many good (notice I did not use the word great) golf courses out there that get lost in the shuffle.

Anyway, glad you enjoyed Crystal Downs...just don't let it dwarf your appreciation of a course like NCR-South.

Glenn Spencer

Re:NCR vs CD or Tom Doak was right again...
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2007, 11:11:52 AM »
Mark-Let me make sure I have this right: (1) an excellent Mackenzie course trumps a very good Dick Wilson design and (2) Tom Doak knows what he is talking about. WHO WOULD'VE THUNK IT?

Seriously, I think very few people would jump NCR-South over the more celebrated designs of the old dead guys. However, I have to tell you that I played NCR-South for the first time last week and I was shocked at how good it was. Based on my limited sample of Dick Wilson designs (his work at Scioto, Coldstream and now NCR-South), it is his best effort by far out of that group.

The other Ohio Wilson work left me with the impression that he tried to impose Florida design elements into his work (the man made water features at Coldstream, the totally out of place 8th at Scioto with its peninsula fairway and island green). At NCR-South, he crafted an intelligent, well routed challenging parkland golf course with nary a water hazard. The stretch of holes which begins the back (the uphill then downhill par five 10th to a green with a vicious false front, the plateau situated 11th with its narrow green, the majestic par four 12th with its downhill tee shot that dares you to challenge the bunker on the left to get the best angle of approach to the elevated green and the par three 13th with a green set at a sloping left to right angle away from the tee) is very strong indeed. I also liked the precipitous uphill approach to the 3rd hole and the back to back par fives on the front

I think one could make a decent case that it should be included in the lower reaches of any top 100 list. However, courses like NCR tend to show how silly and arbitrary these rankings are. If one skipped NCR-South because it is not a consensus top 100 course, they would miss a solid, challenging golf course on a terrific piece of property. In fact, of Ohio courses built after 1950, I can only think of two that I would put above NCR-South: The Golf Club (by a wide margin) and Muirfield Village (and it's much closer than I thought before my trip to Dayton).

So, what I am trying to say is that it is possible for a course like NCR-South to be outclassed by courses such as Crystal Downs but also underrated at the same time. For years, Crystal Downs flew under the radar. My understanding is that few people knew about it and fewer people had seen it. However, that changed over time as more people championed its greatness (Tom Doak chiefly among them).

Western Ohio has plenty of courses that fall under that un- or underappreciated umbrella. How many people know about Moraine, Miami Valley or Springfield? Top 100 courses? No, but very good and a load of fun to play. In fact, Western Ohio seems to have a number of good Donald Ross designs that garner little attention. I have resolved to venture outside of Central Ohio to seek these out. There are so many good (notice I did not use the word great) golf courses out there that get lost in the shuffle.

Anyway, glad you enjoyed Crystal Downs...just don't let it dwarf your appreciation of a course like NCR-South.


Bill,

What does MVGC have that NCR doesn't? In your opinion, which golf course has more average holes?

Billsteele

Re:NCR vs CD or Tom Doak was right again...
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2007, 11:53:04 AM »
Glenn-I didn't mean to suggest that Miami Valley is close to the level of NCR. MVGC is a fun, solid golf course that not many people outside of Dayton know about. Although, NCR has no par three like the one on the front of Miami Valley that plays about 240 over a wetland from the tips. My point was that a lot of enjoyable golf courses fly under the radar because they do not enjoy "ranked" status. To miss them on that basis is a shame. Given the amount of amateur golf you have played, I am sure that you have played MVGC, if nothing else, doesn't it at least qualify as a good "member's course?"

Glenn Spencer

Re:NCR vs CD or Tom Doak was right again...
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2007, 09:08:42 PM »
Glenn-I didn't mean to suggest that Miami Valley is close to the level of NCR. MVGC is a fun, solid golf course that not many people outside of Dayton know about. Although, NCR has no par three like the one on the front of Miami Valley that plays about 240 over a wetland from the tips. My point was that a lot of enjoyable golf courses fly under the radar because they do not enjoy "ranked" status. To miss them on that basis is a shame. Given the amount of amateur golf you have played, I am sure that you have played MVGC, if nothing else, doesn't it at least qualify as a good "member's course?"

Check your PM, Bill. Miami Valley certainly is a good members course. It has reached for greater heights in the past, but with current equipment and all, I think you nailed it.

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