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Peter Pallotta

A Musical Anology ?
« on: August 27, 2007, 09:39:18 AM »
My two favourite jazz clarinettists are Benny Goodman and Pee Wee Russell. They're as different as night and day. While it's fashionable now (especially amongst critics) to dismiss Goodman as a populist who made a fortune by dumbing-down jazz for the masses, I don't think there was a jazz musician back then who didn't marvel at (and envy) his blazing technique, ivory tone, hard-driving swing, and ability to invent melodic lines of high drama. Pee Wee Russell, on the other hand, had a limited technique, a smearing, screechy, piping tone (someone said it sounded like he was playing a drain pipe), and a jagged, elliptical melodic sense; but, he was seen then (and increasingly now) as the true artist of the clarinet.  He really produced some achingly beautiful music, and played with a nakedness that made it sound more like poetry than jazz.  (He struggled with demons his whole life, and lived mostly on a diet of whiskey and cans of tomato soup.)  I play the clarinet, and probably have as much technique as Pee Wee did, but I can’t make the kind of music he did, not even close.  And I don’t have the technique that Goodman had, not even close, so all I can do is produce pale (and much slower) versions of his great solos.

So: is there any parallel here to gca? How important is technique? Can one compensate for a lack of technique with poetic vision? In the old days or now, who was/is the Benny Goodman of architects, and who the Pee Wee Russell, i.e. who the craftsman and who the artist?  Does critical taste move in cycles, i.e. are we in the days of the technician or the artist?

Peter  

By the way, it’s Benjamin David Goodman and Charles Ellsworth Russell, from Chicago and Maplewood (later St. Louis) Missouri, respectively.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:A Musical Anology ?
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2007, 09:45:08 AM »
Peter,
Somewhere, deep in the archives are several threads which utilize both music analogies and even wineries. Let me know if you find any of them. (if you should look)

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Musical Anology ?
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2007, 09:58:53 AM »
Peter good luck with this one, anyone who can start a thread with "My two favourite jazz clarinettists..." reminds me of the Oxford dons overhead having a conversation  "..and Seventeenthly....".  Personally I don't really like Clarinets and Xylophone's in Jazz and have no favourites just the NO 1 dislike Sidney Bechet.  

You obviously know your stuff but I think Goodman and e.g. Puccini and many other musicians have been easy targets for critics because of their popularity.  Would Pee Wee Russell be so highly thought of today if he'd had big hits and all the pressure that brings to repeat a style?   Is it fair to Goodman to categorise him as 'merely' a technician and do we think we know all about him because his music is more out there and certainly played more on the radio over here?  I'm sorry if this is dragging the thread in a different direction but I think there's a danger in categorising people in this way.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Peter Pallotta

Re:A Musical Anology ?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2007, 10:09:52 AM »
Tommy - with respect, I gotta say that was a little disappointing. You don't seem to post much anymore except to say how bad most posts are. I guess this one qualifies, but it was a genuine question. I'm sure there is much great stuff in the archives. I do look through them every once in a while; but when I looked for some Behr material I found one from way back in 2001 announcing Geoff's article on Behr, and there were only five responses, none of them substantive.

Tony - I guess the reference was more obscure than I thought. (Oxford Don - ouch! :)) And I'd be the last the characterize Benny as merely a technician, but that's the sentiment today. It's a kind of language/comparison I understand, and I haven't ever seen architects like Tillinghast or Raynor or Macdonald or Ross etc characterized in terms of craftsmen or poets, and I wanted to know what people thought along those lines. But I might have to chalk this one up to a failed experiment, and watch it sink like a stone.

Peter

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:A Musical Anology ?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2007, 10:23:01 AM »
Peter, Quite the opposite. In fact, I like posts like yours--all of yours because they remind me of my old posts and how fun I used to have with posting before we all became so politically correct and humorless. This post of yours I felt was in complete spirit of my old posts.

Now I just have to watch what I post/when I post, no different then Ran, but for me it's because all of it has become Please Shoot The Moderator.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Musical Anology ?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2007, 10:49:31 AM »
Peter -

I don't know much about Pee Wee Russell and I've never been a fan of Goodman's big band jazz.

But Goodman's version of Mozart's clarinet concerto recorded in the '50's is friggin' transcendant. It will stop you in your tracks.

More to your point, the links between music and gca are numerous and deep. The topic has come up before.

Consider, for example, that both involve:

- a basic text (musical score/architectural drawing),

- interpretations of that basic text (musical performance/building a course in the dirt)

- the transposition of highly abstract ideas into everyday things (harmony, melody and other musical theories that become a song or a symphony are parallel to the role of strategic, penal or heroic theories that shape how architects go about their business)

- the quality of the musical experience/ the quality of the playing experience.

Both start with some fairly etherial concepts and end up expressing those concepts in very specific, concrete ways.

I could go on. But there is a rich vein here that is worth mining.

Bob
« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 11:13:32 AM by BCrosby »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Musical Anology ?
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2007, 02:20:23 PM »
So where would Toots Thielman, the world's best jazz harmonica (talk about niche) player fit in?

Perhaps a singular geat like Hugh Wilson or Crump?

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A Musical Anology ?
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2007, 06:22:13 PM »
Peter as a musician you're way ahead of me here. Same with GCA, I've got lots of opinions and can't play at all.


Bob's onto something. There are similarities, it's just  when it gets down to individuals it becomes all to subjective.  E.g. you like clarinets and I've just remembered if I ever hear Mezz Mezzerow again I'll probably smash the radio.  But oh, I do wish they'd play more Toots.

But here I go generalising again.   Clainets = bad and Toot's never played a bland or overlong solo?  I find it hard to have these discussions but I love to hear others opinions.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Peter Pallotta

Re:A Musical Anology ?
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2007, 11:11:34 PM »
Tony - no, I'm almost sure I'm not ahead of you on either count. (I agree on Mezz, by the way;apparently the good musicians let him hang around only because he supplied the pot.)

I also don't like generalizing, especially when it aims to disparage. That's why I used the Benny-Pee Wee example, i.e. two wonderful clarinettists who 'got there' through widely divergent approaches. That's what I was asking about really, i.e. assuming that there are a number of approaches to designing a wonderful course, which of the old great architects were more 'grounded in technique' let's say, and which relied more on an overall 'poetic vision'.  

I don't have a preconcieved notion of the answers; I don't know enough. But I was curious if those who DO could look at gca in those terms, and what they thought.    

And yes, Bob's post was excellent; all those analogies ring true to me.

Peter