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Michael_Stachowicz

Re:Muirfield Village and Augusta National Green Fans.
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2007, 08:39:38 AM »
Fans do so much more than just lower the temperature, in fact, I would say that that would be a secondary use.  Mostly, as it has been noted here, fans are use in low lying or heavily treed areas.  Why?  Because greens with no air movement become stagnant leading to moist conditions and disease.  These conditions lead to the invasion of poa and a very weak, poorly rooted plant.  So running the fans even when it is cool is important.  This dries out the surface and promotes good root growth.  In fact, the shoulder seasons when the sun is low in the sky and heavily treed greens get even less sun is a key time for their use.

John Kavanaugh

Re:Muirfield Village and Augusta National Green Fans.
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2007, 10:37:36 AM »
Fans do so much more than just lower the temperature, in fact, I would say that that would be a secondary use.  Mostly, as it has been noted here, fans are use in low lying or heavily treed areas.  Why?  Because greens with no air movement become stagnant leading to moist conditions and disease.  These conditions lead to the invasion of poa and a very weak, poorly rooted plant.  So running the fans even when it is cool is important.  This dries out the surface and promotes good root growth.  In fact, the shoulder seasons when the sun is low in the sky and heavily treed greens get even less sun is a key time for their use.

Michael,

You are exactly right and why I question the overkill of the use of Sub-air and fans on the same green.  Thank you.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 10:38:43 AM by John Kavanaugh »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Muirfield Village and Augusta National Green Fans.
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2007, 12:07:11 PM »
Recently, I saw fans on nearly every hole at Pine Valley. It is the first time I can recall seeing them (or seeing so many). I believe they are all temporary and only brought out in the warm humid days toward the end of the summer. I have seen the fan next to #3 green numerous times, so it might be permanent.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2007, 12:07:45 PM by SBerry »

Michael_Stachowicz

Re:Muirfield Village and Augusta National Green Fans.
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2007, 03:11:35 PM »
Fans do so much more than just lower the temperature, in fact, I would say that that would be a secondary use.  Mostly, as it has been noted here, fans are use in low lying or heavily treed areas.  Why?  Because greens with no air movement become stagnant leading to moist conditions and disease.  These conditions lead to the invasion of poa and a very weak, poorly rooted plant.  So running the fans even when it is cool is important.  This dries out the surface and promotes good root growth.  In fact, the shoulder seasons when the sun is low in the sky and heavily treed greens get even less sun is a key time for their use.

Michael,

You are exactly right and why I question the overkill of the use of Sub-air and fans on the same green.  Thank you.

I understand your thoughts and appreciate your grasp of both the tools. It depends on how dire the situation is.  I have found that the sub air is not the cure all that many think.  It is just one tool and it helps dry out the root zone.  If there is a thatch or highly organic layer that is holding onto moisture (the cause of most USGA Greens failures), then the sub air cannot do it alone, you need to work it from both sides.

I don't want to comment on whatever situation you are running into,  none of us can really without seeing it.  I just hope my comments help with the understanding of how the tools in question work.  

John Kavanaugh

Re:Muirfield Village and Augusta National Green Fans.
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2007, 03:35:48 PM »
Michael,

When a super sends out pictures showing how fans reduce the surface temperature of the green surface I get the impression that he does not understand their use or purpose.  Am I off?

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Muirfield Village and Augusta National Green Fans.
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2007, 04:43:49 PM »
David,

Agronomics is a very important factor in design. In your example, however, it is more likely a decision to grow a cool season grass(bentgrass) in a warm season grass(bermudagrass) climate. Sometimes, the issue is just that simple.

Joe

Joe,

I hate to be contrary but it is rarely that simple.  There is no such thing as "the" "magic or perfect" grass for many areas of the country--Atlanta being the one I am most familiar with.

For example, in Atlanta, it is overly simplisitic to describe bentgrass as trying to grow the wrong grass in that environment.  A warm season grass (even the much heralded Champion Bermuda) is not a silver bullet for this area.

Both grasses have the pluses and minuses.  Modern bentgrasses (remember this isn't the old penncross stuff from 1956) do very well from around early September through mid June.  They do struggle for about an eight to twelve week period in the mid and late summer.  However, in my specific situation I want my greens at their best from early fall through early summer.  July and August are slow for me.

Bermuda grass in Atlanta has a relatively short growing season.  Bermuda doesn't really take off until June and by late September it is already slowing down a bit.  This year with the 100+ temps, bermuda course owners look like geniuses :).  But, the notion that you will save maintenance dollars is dubious at best and this comes after a lot of talks with those courses that have made the switch.

In cases (like maybe East Lake or even the AAC) where the desire is to have very firm and fast greens for a particular event held in August or early September, Bermuda would be a great choice.  Year round though Bermuda will have to be covered in the winter when temps fall in the mid 20's.  The greens will either have to be overseeded (a real pain in the fall and spring) or simply spray painted (A popular choice right now).  Arguabley, spray painted dormant bermudagrass isn't what a lot of people want--the greens are "too firm" for many players' tastes.  Also, while we have not had a cold winter recently, despite prevenative measures, winter kill in bermudagrass is a real threat in Atlanta.

I know firsthand the headaches of bent in Atlanta and I did as much research as possible when re-doing my course.  My old GM put in Champion at his new course and I seriously considered it.  In the end, there is no one answer and my decision was based a lot on the oppinion of my super.  He's the grass guy and he still prefers the bent over the bermuda with the caveat that neither is the "silver bullet" for Atlanta.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Muirfield Village and Augusta National Green Fans.
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2007, 05:14:17 PM »
Chris,

No need to apologize, as you have good addendums to my simplistic explanation. I generalize a lot, mostly out of lazy typing skills.

The only thing I would add is the the quest for perfection is what is driving bentgrass use further south, and the likely hood of problems or failure increase with each mile.

It used to be a lot easier when 328 was acceptable, back in the good old days.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Doug Sobieski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Muirfield Village and Augusta National Green Fans.
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2007, 05:25:56 PM »
I generalize a lot, mostly out of lazy typing skills.


Joe:

I've done a lot of research and have found that regardless of the subject matter all generalizations are false.

I've also found that 3 out of 4 golfers make up 75% of the players on courses in America.

You should subscribe to my newsletter.

Sobe    ;D

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Muirfield Village and Augusta National Green Fans.
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2007, 05:28:12 PM »
Joe,

Your absolutely right about the constant quest for perfection not only on the greens but all over the golf course.  

While the good ole days weren't always so good, regarding course expectations I agree that we could learn a lot from history :)

Michael_Stachowicz

Re:Muirfield Village and Augusta National Green Fans.
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2007, 05:50:10 PM »
Michael,

When a super sends out pictures showing how fans reduce the surface temperature of the green surface I get the impression that he does not understand their use or purpose.  Am I off?

I don't know if that is fair.  I find that in my communications with members I have to simplify the technical stuff, perhaps that is what he is doing.  There are not many golfers who have the interest or aptitude to learn that you have.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Muirfield Village and Augusta National Green Fans.
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2007, 07:07:44 PM »
I generalize a lot, mostly out of lazy typing skills.


Joe:

I've done a lot of research and have found that regardless of the subject matter all generalizations are false.

I've also found that 3 out of 4 golfers make up 75% of the players on courses in America.

You should subscribe to my newsletter.

Sobe    ;D

How about this then? "I always generalize, completely due to the fact that I'm a lazy typer".

 ;D

Sign me up for the newsletter, as I am to lazy to do it myself....
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

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