Design with pace of play in mind

[David Stamm]

I was watching TGC last night and there was a piece on the pace of play dilemma facing the game and what golfers can do to quicken up there pace of play and what is done on the Champions Tour to quicken play as well. After watching this, I started wondering. Since this has become a topic of concern more and more amongst golfers, how much thought is given to a design by today's architects in regards to pace of play? Will an architect sacrifice a better hole design in favor of keeping the distance from green to tee shorter? Are there other not so obvious design features that are incorporated into the course to address this ongoing problem?

[Clyde Johnston]

I've always tried to make the starting holes a little wider and easier but the land, topography and wetlands play a big factor. I also try to put the first par 3 beyond the third hole and not have a reachable par 5 in the first few holes. The first par 3 would also be the shortest and least difficult of the par threes.

[Chris_Clouser]

Something I have noticed in Indiana is a trend to surround greens with deep native grasses and environmental areas.  What often happens is that the player that is walking cannot cut through these areas to get to the next tee and often has to take a cart path that many times has a much longer route than if they walked in a straight line.  Bear Slide in Cicero is a prime example of this.  One of the things that another course in the area, Purgatory, did was just have an area cut low so that a walker can make a straight line from the green to the next tee box and they do the same from the tee boxes to the fairway in every case possible.  That probably cuts about 1000 yards off of the walk over the entire course.  

I know this isn't always possible because of ponds and housing development courses, but if architects designed this into the plan it would be a great benefit for the walker and help speed up the transitions from hole to hole.  

But the best thing that can help speed up pace of play is the age old practice of playing ready golf.   It really is that simple.  You can see this every day on any golf course you go to.  You would be amazed at how many people will get out of a cart, stand over their ball for about thirty seconds, talk to their buddy then search for a marker for yardage if they don't have GPS in the cart, then go back and think about what club to get out of the bag.  Then they go through the whole pre-shot routine, hit, watch the ball, discuss the shot then clean the club before putting it back in the bag, proceed to their buddy's ball and do the same thing.  Rinse and repeat this on every hole during the round and it is painfully obvious why golf takes too long.  That whole process takes about a minute a player.  Figure in 18 tee shots and at least 14 approaches then you 32 to 36 shots at one minute per player.  For a foursome that totals two hours and leads to the five hour round.  Take those two hours away and you have three hour rounds.  

Clyde,

I like your comments about trying to spread the players out by the placement of holes, but isn't that still subject to how closely together the course puts the tee times?

 

[Clyde Johnston]

I like your comments about trying to spread the players out by the placement of holes, but isn't that still subject to how closely together the course puts the tee times?

Of course the tee time interval matters. I've always wondered why courses don't start out with a longer interval and gradually progress to a more efficient interval. That might allow the earlier players a good head start in the event they run into a difficult hole early in the round.

[JC Jones]

Chris -

I think your concern isnt just limited to golfers on carts.  I think golfers in general arent receiving an education in how to play the game (i.e. ready golf).

Just this past weekend, my group (3-some walking) was behind a four-some who was also walking.  I noticed several things:

1.  They would often all walk to each other's ball and stand and watch as opposed to going to their own ball and taking their practice swings while the others were getting ready to hit.
2.  On the holes where the next tee was further back than the previous green, instead of leaving their bag in the rough a head they would take it all the way back to the tee with them.

3.  Not letting faster groups play through.  They were behind a four some in carts and were a hole behind them.  We arrived to a tee at a par 3 before they all reached the green.  Instead of letting us play through or at least hit up, they proceeded as if they were the only ones on the course.

I can go on and on but my point is that golfers in general, not just those in carts, are a cause for the problems with pace.

[John Mayhugh]

I've always tried to make the starting holes a little wider and easier but the land, topography and wetlands play a big factor. I also try to put the first par 3 beyond the third hole and not have a reachable par 5 in the first few holes. The first par 3 would also be the shortest and least difficult of the par threes.

I agree that the best way to open up is with wider starting holes. Even though the second at Cherry Blossom (Clyde's design in Georgetown KY) is a par 3, each of the first few holes do have a little more room off the tee and simpler greens than the later holes.  This works pretty well.

[Garland Bayley]

...
2.  On the holes where the next tee was further back than the previous green, instead of leaving their bag in the rough a head they would take it all the way back to the tee with them.
...

Are you trying to find ways to slow down golf with your suggestions?
 

[Garland Bayley]

Why not just give a green fee discount for proven fast players?

[Peter Pallotta]

David
I don't know if you've seen it already, but the interview with Bill Yates in the "feature interview" section here is very good and interesting in this area.

Peter

[Jason Topp]

I think green to tee walks are a huge factor in this.  

Older clubs play faster in large part due to this factor.

Recently I played Big Fish in Wisconsin and was impressed (at least on the front nine) at how the green to tee walk was nearly identical for each of the back 3 sets of tees.  Clearly a lot of thought went into their placement.

[JC Jones]

Garland -

Maybe I didnt articulate that well.  

You leave the green of hole x.  Hole y is parallel to hole x but heads in the opposite direction.  You walk straight off the green to the rough that separates the two holes which is about 75 yards from the tee.  You have to walk past this point whether you hit your drive straight or not.  Leave the bag there in the rough and only take only the driver back to the tee.  

the opportunity doesnt present itself on every course but i believe it increases the speed because you arent carrying your bag for that 150 yards.

[Kalen Braley]

In my experience, the cause of slow play is not due to the walks between greens and tees.

It is exactly because of what Chris described earlier.  Too much dicking around before people hit the ball instead of thinking about your shot, figuring out your yardage, and pulling the club while your playing partners are playing. There is far too much gawking and shooting the shit going on when its not thier turn instead of being ready to go when it is thier turn.

[JC Jones]

I agree and my point was not to emphasize the distance between greens and tees (although it can be an issue in some circumstances) but rather to point out that the problem inst just with golfers on carts.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Here is a link to a cybergolf article I wrote on the subject.  Not a lot original, and if I ever edit this, I will add a section on financial incentives for the retail golfer to play faster.....

http://www.cybergolf.com/brauersbook/index.asp?newsID=2737

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Stamm,

I think archictecture plays a very small role in pace of play.

I know that troglodytes on this site will cite some extreme examples, but, pace of play isn't a function of the architecture, it's a function of the culture.

The Pine Valley's, GCGC's, WF's and SH's of the golf universe have existed for nearly a century with few amendments to their architecture, yet, pace of play steadily deteriorated, especially with the advent of TV where 26 handicappers learned to plumb bob and read putts from 360 degrees, only after it was their turn.

This is a cultural, not an architectural problem.

[Mike Dasher]

I've shared this with some of you but not on this site.  My Ideal golf course has mandatory valet parking.  Minimum standards for armed parking lot attendants is 6’-5” in height, 250 pounds in weight.  There would be a visible set of barbells in the staging area.  Anytime you fall behind a ten minute per hole pace, you are subject to having the valets drive out onto the course with your car, load up you and your equipment and escort you to the front gate.  No refunds, just a warning to never come back.

I believe you will drive away all but those who are interested in pace of play.

[Mike_Cirba]

I've shared this with some of you but not on this site.  My Ideal golf course has mandatory valet parking.  Minimum standards for armed parking lot attendants is 6’-5” in height, 250 pounds in weight.  There would be a visible set of barbells in the staging area.  Anytime you fall behind a ten minute per hole pace, you are subject to having the valets drive out onto the course with your car, load up you and your equipment and escort you to the front gate.  No refunds, just a warning to never come back.

I believe you will drive away all but those who are interested in pace of play.

I would simply add that the ponds should be filled with evil sharks with laser beams attached to their heads.  

Repeat offenders would get the Dinah Shore Tourney treatment.

[David Stamm]

David Stamm,

I think archictecture plays a very small role in pace of play.

I know that troglodytes on this site will cite some extreme examples, but, pace of play isn't a function of the architecture, it's a function of the culture.

The Pine Valley's, GCGC's, WF's and SH's of the golf universe have existed for nearly a century with few amendments to their architecture, yet, pace of play steadily deteriorated, especially with the advent of TV where 26 handicappers learned to plumb bob and read putts from 360 degrees, only after it was their turn.

This is a cultural, not an architectural problem.

Pat, I couldn't agree more with your comments. I was just curious if architects try to address this ongoing problem with their designs. The onus does fall with golfers themselves.

[Bill_McBride]

I think archictecture plays a very small role in pace of play.

I agree fast play is a culture thing, but did want to mention that I just played Tokatee in Oregon and can't remember seeing a course built after WWII with shorter green to tee walks.  It had been at least 15 years since my last round there and I had forgotten how well the course is routed for fast play.

I know you played there recently and think you were as pleased with the course as I was.  It's really a fun round - and fast too.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill McBride,

I really liked Tokatee.

And, as I played it, I saw areas where I thought the golf course could be dramatically improved.

I think it's an enjoyable course to play with potential to be even better.

There are some golf courses where green to tee walks are almost impossible.

No matter how good the individual holes, I think that's a flaw or perhaps, better phrased, a "shortcoming"

These tedious walks are sometimes the product of the site and/or the permitting process, along with the user (cart golf)

Sherwood would be a good example of difficult walks that taint the collection of individual holes.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill McBride,

I really liked Tokatee.

And, as I played it, I saw areas where I thought the golf course could be dramatically improved.

I think it's an enjoyable course to play with potential to be even better.

Tokatee is quite rustic which makes it even more charming.  There isn't a lot of bite, and no fairway bunkering to speak of, and a very weak first hole, but the meandering in and out of forest and meadow made it a lot of fun and very pleasant.

You could toughen it up with a center bunker on #1, cross bunkering on the par 5 #3, and in general make it more challenging.  But as is makes for a good day of walking golf.

[Bill_Yates]

Great topic and some great postings.  

My discussion on the effect course design has on the pace and flow of play is posted as the Feature Interview for July.  It's long but I think you will find some interesting points regarding the relationship between Course Design, Slow Play and Course Management.

[Jon Wiggett]

Although the design of the course can effect the pace of play it certainly isn't the thing that is going to save us from it. Thirty or so years ago a round over 3 hours was considered slow and 4 hours would get you hung regardless of the type of course. These days people talk of sub 4 hours as quick. The courses are not to blame but the attitude of the golfer. If the golfer would stop pratting about like some primadona golf professional and just get on with putting the ball in the hole we would all be better off.

[Forrest Richardson]

I do not know how you can say that architecture play a minor role in pace. Indeed, the design of a golf course is a major factor in setting ideal pace by virtue of its length, complexity, green-to-tee distances, native grasses, etc.

[Jon Wiggett]

Forrest,

I didn't say it played a minor role, I only said it wasn't going to save us from slow play. I agree that how the course is planned and looked after is going to help but regardless of what the GCA does if the players are slow then so is play.