Indestructibility

[KBanks]

Henry Longhurst arranged a personal composite "perfect course" in a column for Golf Illustrated in 1961. In so doing, he nominated two holes on the basis of "that quality which the architects call 'indestructibility', the power to survive changes in the ball and the weather and everything else". The holes he had in mind were the 5th at Rye, and the 1st at Prestwick.

He ordained that a left to right breeze would be blowing on those two holes.

Almost fifty years later, do his choices still qualify?

What are other examples of "indestructible" holes, and why?

I thought of two at Dornoch that might fit the definition, both as a result of their green complexes: the 2nd, and Foxy.

Longhurst's composite course:

No. 1, St. Andrews 1st
No. 2, Hoylake's 1st
No. 3, Mildenhall's 3rd
No. 4, Rye's 5th
No. 5, Birkdale's 14th
No. 6, Prestwick's 1st
No. 7, Huntercombe's 13th
No. 8, Mildenhall's 5th
No. 9, Rye's 4th
No. 10, Sandwich's 15th
No. 11, Addington's 13th
No. 12, Lytham's 8th
No. 13, Deal's 6th
No. 14, St. Andrews' 14th
No. 15, Addington's 16th
No. 16, Formby's 16th
No. 17, St. Andrews' 17th
No. 18, Hoylake's 17th

He confesses in the column that his favorite courses are St. Andrews and Mildenhall. I think he was a member of Sandwich.

Ken

[PThomas]

not the Road Hole, I say, incredibly and unfortunately

[Tom_Doak]

A very interesting list, which I've never seen before.

A few of those holes are indeed indestructible, starting with the 4th and 5th at Rye.  Very few of his par-4 holes would be driver holes for long hitters anymore, though.  And, perhaps most interestingly of all, his choice for a finishing hole has in fact been destroyed with the creation of a new green.

I would have to think a bit about what other holes maintain an "indestructible" character.  The first which come to mind are the 5th at Merion and 15th at Garden City, with their sharply tilted greens ... it doesn't matter much what club you are hitting for the approach shots there, it's a hard shot no matter what.

[KBanks]

Paul,

Why do you say that about the Road Hole? Are the ladies taking it apart this week?

Tom,

Note that only Rye's fifth and Prestwick's first were nominated by Longhurst as indestructible, although a case might be made for others on his perfect course.

I wish I could scan the essay; in it Longburst says a number of interesting things. He nominates the 4th at Rye (at the time of the President's Putter!) and the Road Hole as ideal "four and a half" holes.

The essay begins:

"I set off on the principle that the perfect course will be made up of four long holes, four short and ten two-shotters of assorted lengths. Of the four long holes I would make two of them really long, where if you miss a shot you are hard put to get a five. The other two are what you might call chance-of-a-four holes. Among the four short holes I would like to see one long one--a full go with a brassie, say--one very short 'chance-of-two' and two of ordinary length. As to the ten two-shotters, these will include a number of very severe par fours and two of the chance-of-a-three type."

He adds the 8th at Lytham to his perfect course, but says it is a hole "I dislike with the most cordial respect".

The closing paragraph includes this: "I don't know how long my course is. Nothing, indeed, could matter less."

Ken

[PThomas]

Ken- the ladies were taking it apart before today, but they were playing it as a par 5

I was more thinking about the 05 Open there, when the R&A had to grow heavy rough down the right side to protect the hole, if i remember correctly

[Paul_Turner]

Ken

Sadly one of those has since been destroyed:  17th Hoylake.

It's a great list of holes.

[Bill_McBride]

Ken

Sadly one of those has since been destroyed:  17th Hoylake.

It's a great list of holes.

I've only played the current #17 at Hoylake, in the 2006 Buda Cup, but one look at the former greensite hard by the road with nothing to stop it but perhaps the wind makes one shiver at the thought of a long iron approach.

[Mark_F]

An interesting list.

The most common feature many of the holes apear to share is OOB, especially those like Hoylake and Prestwick's 1st, St Andrews' 14th and 17th, and the 17th at Hoylake, who have fairways and/or greens snuggled up close to the OOB, rather than a being a more flirtatious invitation.

The 6th at Carnoustie surely qualifies for a similar reason?

Tom mentions a couple of sharply tilting greens at Merion and Garden City.  There was a post here in the last week or so of the 13th green at Prestwick - surely a green such as that will forever withstand the march of time?

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

Absolutely, the 13th at Prestwick falls into the "indestructible" category.  So would the 16th at Deal.

[TEPaul]

I would say a ton of holes at Pine Valley may fall into the category of "indestructible" (as defined on here) simply because of the liberal use of cross hazards down there.

In Crump's conception many of those cross hazards served the purpose of complicating second shots following something less than an ideal shot.

But today those same cross hazards serve the purpose amongst good and strong golfers of simply shutting them down off tees from using their maximum distance clubs.

I doubt a guy like Crump all those years ago foresaw this result but it's nevertheless the reality today, so those good players today are still back in the same approach areas as the good guys back in the beginning.

Of course the good player back then hit his 3 iron about as far as the good player today hits his 7 iron. But you can't have everything.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Does anyone think that a short hole, like the 10th at Riviera, would fit this category, and that it might be the shortest par 4 to do so?

[BCrosby]

Jim -

No question the 10th at Riviera ought to qualify. The pros still can't figure out how to play it.

Bob

[TEPaul]

"Jim -
No question the 10th at Riviera ought to qualify. The pros still can't figure out how to play it.
Bob"

Bob:

Actually, it looks to me like the pros have sort of figured out how to play that hole better. Obviously it's because they are just so long today. It seems like many more are trying to force it down the left side, even into the rough as that's a much better angle into that green and they're so close they almost have mini pitches or chips.

But you can see that the club and its architects are taking that option away from them by planting more bushes and higher rough over there.

[TEPaul]

Even if it's been reworked recently from the original I think the 17th at Oakmont has just got to be named in this category. The tee shot options are certainly very distinct from one another and the fact is the US Open competitors by no means overloaded the use of just one of them.

Come to think of it, Oakmont's #2 certainly deserves to be named.

PVGC's #8 deserves mention too. It doesn't matter how you play that hole, the potential for disaster if you happen to miss that green is very real.

Matter of fact, PV's 8th is really cool because a player can hit an almost perfect shot into that green but if he doesn't sort of feel the firmness or receptivity of the green before he hits his shot he can very easily "stair-step" a perfectly placed shot with too much spin right off the front of that green.

I can't tell you how many times I've done that and how many times I've seen good players do it. Every time it happens my first thought is I sure do wish I could get Kenny Venturi to show me how to play his famous "dead hands" approach shot.

I think I have some idea how to hit that shot but some little bird always whispers in my ear that if I tried it I might hit it dead fat and if I didn't do that I just might hit it right but about 3/4 of the way to the green. And even if I managed to do it correctly something tells me my ball just might "stair step" righy UP those mini-tiers and right off the back of the green into that back bunker that says to you when you get in it "I got you by the balls sucker". Not to mention the fact that if and when you get in it, its right about that.

[James Bennett]

Jim -

No question the 10th at Riviera ought to qualify. The pros still can't figure out how to play it.

Bob

Bob

on another thread, we were talking about Max Behr and Lakeside's #13 green as a deep, narrow green on a shortish par 4 where the tee-shot position was critical to getting a decent amount of green to play with.

Riviera #10 is another example, although to get the full green in front of you requires a shot played long into the left hand rough.  The Riviera green is set perhaps at 60 or 70 degrees to the line of the teeshot (dogleg right), whereas Lakeside is more like 30 to 40 degrees (dogleg left).

Interesting times for course construction in Los Angeles in the mid 1920's eh.

James B