Shinny, NGLA, Sebonack, and the ratings game

[Tom Huckaby]

But Jim, please.  Just because Patrick states this necessarily means it's true?

I too believe he's right and take his word for it that Sebonack is unique enough on its own to hold its head up nicely.

But I also believe there will be those who downgrade it just because it's not as great as its two incredibly great neighbors - ie the Lake Merced example - that is, it might be a world top 5 if it was alone somewhere else, and it might not be because of where it is.

You KNOW there will be some who think this way.  I feel comfortable that they will be the exceptions, not the rule, given who is likely to be able to see Sebonack at all.  But there will be some who think this way - you had to have met some in Orlando.

[Jim Franklin]

Huck -

I know there will be exceptions, but Patrick has at least seen the place so his opinion is more viable than mine since I have not seen the place yet. And I do hope some of those folks from Orlando do not see Sebonack as I can't fathom what they would think. From the pics I have seen, it does look unique to its neighbors. Time will tell if this hurts or helps.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim:

Understood.  It was just a bit scary how quick you were to acquiesce.

 

Seems to me a given the place is unique enough to stand on its own; I don't think we need Patrick to tell us that.  But unique or not, if too many of the type you met in Orlando see it, it would seem the assessment might turn on the quality of locker room towels.  So methinks it is tough to make any absolute statements about this.

TH

[SL_Solow]

Huck; if course #1 is built and a superior neighbor is subsequently created, doesn't #1 have to go down in the ratings?  After all, there is at least 1 new course that is better (the superior neighbor).  Only if the first course receives a significant drop and/or its objective ratings fall could one suggest that it was negatively impacted by the new neighbor.  Sometimes courses drop because something better is built.  Sometimes courses don't find their level until the initial buzz from the "newness" wears off and sometimes it takes a while for raters to properly appreciate a course. Thus it pays to wait awhile before deciding where any particular course will ultimately end up in the overall scheme of things.  As for the Bandon trio, I just returned having been away for about 3 years.  They're all wonderful in different ways and I'm still working on where I place them in my personal pantheon.

[Tom Huckaby]

Shelly - that all makes great sense, and that's how it should go, and likely does go, in general.

But I still maintain there are some who downgraded Bandon unfairly, only after Pacific Dunes appeared.  It was great for a few years, and then all of a sudden not so great.  That to me is weird.

But it's also weird I'd choose to belabor this point... so never mind.

 

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Pat-

Would you say that this kind of syndrome happens in Garden City?

-Mike

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

Take a chill on the WIDE GAP between #2 and #6 on the modern listing.

The difference between such listings is soooooooooooooooooooooooo small to be laughable.

I understand where you are coming from but the likely reason is the edge many raters give to a Doak design and the fact that Pac Dunes was the new boy on the block.

Wait until this year's US Mid Am and it's likely you will hear plenty of positive comments on the original 18.

P.S. When you talk about deficient ratings -- I can name plenty of courses that are equal to the likes of Bandon Dunes and they were either rated far lower or not at all. That's the larger issue of injustice / ignorance at work.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

In terms of raw numbers, you are wrong on the above point ... the difference between the grades of the #2 and #6 courses in the rankings is actually greater than the difference between #75 and #100.

And I really don't believe Pacific Dunes finished ahead of Bandon Dunes because of my name (I wasn't exactly a big name then) nor because it was "the new boy on the block".  When we were building it, a lot of people, even on this forum, suggested that it would be hard to compete with Bandon Dunes; we just put our heads down and did our best job and didn't worry about that.

And I believe even a great pundit like yourself has rated Pacific Dunes higher than Bandon, presumably on the merits instead of the other factors you named above.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

I don't think that Sebonack will suffer in the ratings due to its proximity to NGLA and SH.  If anything, I think some will marvel at how four (4) golf courses, contiguous to one another are so outstanding, with other great courses a short ride away.

I think questions about the location of the parking lotm other facilities and the golf course itself will have more of an influence on the ratings than Sebonack's neighbors.

I think comparisons to it's neighbors are a desperate last gasp argument some will use when they can't find fault with the golf course.

And, I think a comparison is unfair.

Had Friar's Head been sited next to NGLA and SH would it stand on its merits or have detractors who demoted it due to its neighbors ?

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt:

I don't give a rat's ass about the rankings; I absolutely understand there's a tiny difference between #2 and #6.  Like I've said about 10 times now, my beef is with pundits in here who first said it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, then when Pacific came around only then started to find all these faults with BD and changed their tunes to say it sucked.  The ratings thing is just tiny evidence of the more glaring oddity in here.

Patrick:

You're probably right on the overall, as I've also stated numerous times.  But there WILL be those who downgrade Sebonack due to the Lake Merced effect. Not everyone thinks logically in these matters.  You can't believe they universally do, do you?

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

I agree that some will denegrate the golf course, in a general sense, saying it doesn't live up to its big brothers.

I'd rather evaluate the golf course in the sole context of its merits, without inserting comparisons.

There are some great holes at Sebonack.

If I had my drothers, I would have prefered to see a solo designer, but, it wasn't my choice, and, I would have given that designer free reign or more latittude by siting some facilities elsewhere.

But, when all is said and done, it's a very good golf course as it is.

[Tom Huckaby]

If I had my drothers, I'd be playing these great courses rather than sitting here speculating about them.  I rarely get my drothers.

Is that how you spell that word, btw?

 

Hey, I have no doubt Sebonack is a great golf course - too many very reputable people like yourself have said too many great things about it for it not to be.

The ratings will sort themselves out.

Question though:  do the powers that be care about ratings, or disdain them as Friar's Head seems to?

I had assumed the latter... but do you know one way or the other?

TH

[Jim Franklin]

Huck -

Has anyone ever really said Bandon Dunes sucked? I prefer Pac Dunes, but given a choice to play 10 rounds I would probably split them 5 apiece.

I have not seen Sebonack, but I felt Friar's Head may have been rated a little lower than it should initially due to it being fairly close to two stud courses. I was shocked it didn't win Best New. That is my concern about Sebonack. I hope its uniqueness will stand on its own.

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck -

Has anyone ever really said Bandon Dunes sucked? I prefer Pac Dunes, but given a choice to play 10 rounds I would probably split them 5 apiece.

Perhaps "sucked" is just excitable me exaggerating a bit.  But several on here have put the split at 10-0.  Create your own adjective.

 

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

C'mon -- with all due respect, there are people on this site who specifically chose to play certain courses -- and only certain courses -- because of the person who designs them. Tom, you have your own fan base and that's fine. There are also a number of key people -- raters too -- who knew you before the explosion that took place after Pac.

Yes, I rated Pac ahead of Bandon and I stand by those comments. I do like Bandon Dunes -- candidly if anything I see Bandon Trails as the lesser of the three courses.

Frankly, if a course finished in the top 10 modern that's a mega achievement -- whether it's totally deserved or not is another issue since I see other courses not listed as being primary contenders for an even higher placement than where they are situated now.

P.S. One last thing -- is Pac Dunes going to be a part of the USGA Mid AM -- I have heard the 36-hole onsite qualifier and match play will only involve the other two courses.

Huck:

You give a "rats ass" on ratings because you seem focused on pointing out where Bandon Dunes finished previously when compared to Pac Dunes. C'mon Huck -- please.

[David Stamm]

Pat,

Let me answer your answer with a question as well...

Do you believe in the big fish / small pond theory?

 

Sully, I know you directed the question to Pat, but I buy into that theory a little bit. Everyone knows how weak a golf destination San Diego is. Torrey Pines, IMHO, would not be ranked as high if it were located in another golf course rich city. It would be just another decent course. But because it is the most known here and elsewhere, I think that helps it ranking wise. This isn't bashing the course. I like TP. I just don't think it would he as highly thought of if had tougher competition around it.

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck:

You give a "rats ass" on ratings because you seem focused on pointing out where Bandon Dunes finished previously when compared to Pac Dunes. C'mon Huck -- please.

No Matt, I really don't.  I only cited that to show that there was at least a grain of truth in the point I made which was so otherwise wrong.  On the whole, my point was about 95% about perceptions in here, 5% about ratings anyway.  And I truly do not care about that 5%.

TH

[Jim Franklin]

I felt Friar's Head may have been rated a little lower than it should initially due to it being fairly close to two stud courses. I was shocked it didn't win Best New. That is my concern about Sebonack. I hope its uniqueness will stand on its own.

A course that is truly great will rise to the top.  I don't believe this neighborhood crap for a NY minute.

Friar's Head and its architectural team is given Idolatry status on this site, even to the B & W photographic treatment and mystic and prosaic lyricism to the written review.  It would have Masters®-like music playing in the background if all were truly right with the world to some on here.

One needs to get information from sources other than www.golfclubatlas.com , there's a whole world of golf out there. Friar's Head is a very fine golf course, but not everyone in the world thinks like the 1500 on here do and few of the 1500 risk being expelled for expressing contrarianisms.

Thanks. I do try to get information from other sources such as personal experience and I played Friar's Head the year it came out as well as Dallas National which came in second and I thought Friar's Head was better. Apparently the rest of the GD panel did not agree with me. I did not see Black Rock that year so I cannot comment on it.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Just a couple points about Friar's Head before I join the fun about Sebonack.  I think Friar's Head sufferes because they really do not want to be rated.  A panelist friend of mine played the course and was asked to "please don't send in a rating."  It takes forty panelist visits to be eligible for the top 100.  I don't know how many GD panelist have visited the course but my guess is not that number.  The fewer visits the easier one poor rating effects its place on the list.  I have not been there but hope to get there this fall.

I just returned from playing Sebonack.  I have played NGLA and Shinny half a dozen times.  The three courses could not be any more different and driving through Shinnecock and NGLA to get to Sebonack sets the stage well.  You can't miss the proximity to either course.  At one point you can see not only the NGLA clubhouse but players on the 18th green.

I don't think its proximity will suffer because Sebonack is not only differen it is a great course.  Doak's routing is brilliant and the bunkering is outstanding. As per Nicklaus all but one tee shot is down hill. The fairways are wide but the tee shot needs to be in the correct poisition to get the best angle to those wild greens.  It is a thinkers course.  The beauty is breath taking.  I played it in the rain on Monday and it was a ball.

Sebonack can hold its head up high in its exclusive company.

[Jim Franklin]

That's why all 8,947 of you have a vote.  

Is it that many now? I know we were looking for some new panelists in some remote areas, but 9,000 is a lot. Then again, there are a lot of courses that need to be seen too.

[Mark Hissey]

I know that if I felt that Sebonack has rudely placed maintenance barns, cottages and or roads in a manner that has harmed her neighbor I would mark the course down.  Does this sound fair?

This issue never ceases to bother me. Here are some questions to ask yourself:

Where do these maintenance barns lie in relation to the barns at NGLA, and are they really that obnoxious?

What is the reason for the exposure of the maintenance facility and who was responsible for the removal of any trees which could have helped shield these buildings?

Should the location for any buildings on Sebonanck be dictated to by neighbors regardless of what is the best location on the site for Sebonack? Should NGLA be the only one to have a say in this or should every neighbor be considered? What about permiting considerations requiring possible minimal views of the buildings to the public?

Should the repeated, and even belated opportunities to purchase the property which were passed up ultimately negate any right for criticism?

[Mark Hissey]

Mike:

The issue of the maintenance area is the one that bothers me the most. When we went to map out the property line, it became apparent that trees on Sebonack property were cut down from National's side. At least 100 feet into the maintenance area. Had these trees been left in place, I'm quite confident that the maintenace facilty would be completely obscured judging by the size of the trees that we had cleared out of that area.

So, we were left with the issue that National could see our buildings because they had cut down our trees.

We have subsequently spent quite a lot of money to restore this area. We have bermed, moved trees into the area with a tree spade, and put in other native vegetation.

Frankly, the "bad neighbor" tag that has been grumbled about is completely undeserved.

[Jim Franklin]

Pat Mucci was right. After having just played this lovely trio, Sebonack is unique and different enough from its lofty neighbors to have its own personality and place in Eastern Long Island golf. In 50 years, I am sure each of the courses will still be viewed as top tier golf.

I did not think the Sebonack sheds, clubhouse etc... took away from my experience at NGLA a bit.