[Geoffrey Childs]

Trust me on this one . . . this course is really good.  It's really bold and it's really fun to play if you have an avid imagination and some patience.  

I'm picturing something like a Wisconsin version of Tobacco Road. Walkable but the routing definitely slows down the pace of play for walkers. Bold and imaginative but perhaps bordering on over the top on at least a few holes. Generates a love it or hate it sort of response.

Has anyone played bother Erin Hills and the Road?

Erin Hills is in a different league then TR.  TR will never be a great golf course.  EH has that possibility. It is also about the same effort to walk but for the fact that it is a larger property.

[Dan Moore]

Rides were given in 3 places for pace of play purposes due to distance between one green and the next tee, not due to difficulty.  

Its not the easiest walk, but its not bad either.  The only real difficulty is that there are several climbs up to some elevated tee boxes.  One of my fellow contestants had his wife caddying for him and she pushed their two wheel cart up to every tee box without a problem.  

This is the ideal course for a caddy.  Take one and you will have a very enjoyable day.  

[Mike Erdmann]

Rides were given in 3 places for pace of play purposes due to distance between one green and the next tee, not due to difficulty.  

Its not the easiest walk, but its not bad either.  The only real difficulty is that there are several climbs up to some elevated tee boxes.  One of my fellow contestants had his wife caddying for him and she pushed their two wheel cart up to every tee box without a problem.  

This is the ideal course for a caddy.  Take one and you will have a very enjoyable day.  

So how long is the distance between the green and tee that requires a cart shuttle?  I just find it quite curious that a course that doesn't have to deal with housing constraints has a green to tee walk long enough that it requires a cart shuttle.

I'm reminded of that Steven Wright quip that 'everywhere is walking distance......if you've got the time'.

[Neal_Meagher]

Of all the comments here, I understand Neal Meagher's least of all.  He seemed to be saying that most golf coursse will be tweaked over time and get better and you shouldn't expect too much right out of the blocks.  We aim higher than that.  If you've got to go back and rebuild bunkers and rebuild greens, then the original architect didn't do that great of a job.

Quite to the contrary regarding what I was trying to say about Erin Hills and its ilk.  I agree that if, in the very short term, you have to go back in and rebuild greens then the architect didn't do that great of a job.  What the case seems to be to me regarding Erin Hills is that it appears to be a course that will create a solid framework for the long term.  Very long term, like 60 years.

Say what you want about the changes to ANGC, but the basic framework established in the 1930's has held up nicely and allowed it to remain a viable test for the very best players of today as well as the members. That is all I was getting at, that the basic imprint of a golf course that can be modified either by removing a small mound or by more major building projects is a hallmark of a great golf course.  

Any course can be completely re-routed, blown-up and made into anything anybody wants it to be, but to create something from day 1 that still works well far into the future with the major strategies and look intact is rare.  And I maintain that it is necessary to make tweaks both large and small to keep ahead of the curve.  I am NOT granting any architect carte blanche to not do everything within his power to absolutely get all the details right from the start.  That is and always should be the goal.  As should creating a worthy framework that future generations can still enjoy.

[Dan Moore]

Good point.  The current 16th at ANGC, one the holes that makes the back nine great, was not part of MacKenzie's original design.  

[Jim Colton]

John:

I was enjoying reading this thread after spending the day with Brad Klein and others in Bandon, and then you had to drag my name into it.

The routing that I'd done for Erin Hills was mowed out for a while.  I don't know if Bob Lang ever saw that.  He did interview me for the job, but I gotthe impression he needed to hire his own man, and he and Mike Hurdzan (both former Green Berets) hit it off, and that was that.

There is only one hole on the current course which is much like a hole on my routing -- the ninth.  Several holes are sort of backwards from my routing, which is probably just a function of having certain corridors of visibility.  Did Ron and Mike Hurdzan see my routing and try NOT to do it that way?  I don't know.  But their routing is way different.

Brad can defend his comments, if he so chooses.  I haven't commented on the course because anything I say would be taken by some as "sour grapes" because I didn't get the job, and I don't need to get into that debate.

Of all the comments here, I understand Neal Meagher's least of all.  He seemed to be saying that most golf coursse will be tweaked over time and get better and you shouldn't expect too much right out of the blocks.  We aim higher than that.  If you've got to go back and rebuild bunkers and rebuild greens, then the original architect didn't do that great of a job.

Tom,

No disrespect to Hurdzan, Fry and Whitten -- the course looks great, but I think I'm not the only one out there who would've like to have seen what your team could've done with this site.

[John Kavanaugh]

If you want to see what Doak would have done with that site you need to come down to Boonville, In and play Quail Crossing.  Last time I played with a GCAer we walked for $17....It is a great place.

One thing I don't understand is why Whitten is all ga-ga about the site.  Top five he ever saw.  It looks all so typical midwestern to me except the few speciman trees look sick.  What is it about that site past the owners checkbook that stands out.

[Adam Clayman]

Tom,

Not 100% sure but this falls close to the GCA Double Standard rule. Maybe we need a proxy in the bylaws for the statement, "I am not going to comment BUT here is my comment."

Mike, That is such a huge stretch.  He said he wouldn't comment on the golf course, EH. Not that he wouldn't promote the fact the man can buld a fine golf course.

After our innaugral dinner Tom sat around one of the tables while people asked him questions and chatted. I found myself just listening and then felt the sense that I should ask him something, afterall this was a very special occasion. So I asked him whether he thought he might be inclined to tinker with his new creation over the years the way Ross did at Pinehurst or Pete does at Teeth of the Dog?  He said No! Feeling that along with him and most of his associates having spent so much time on site, all the tweaking was done prior to seeding.

Not sure if you're aware of the recent weather woes we are having here on the Plains but I can tell you that after considerable rain over a 48 hour period the course has had zero issues with any bunker or feature.

The man can build a golf course and while the market players are copying the look I sense they are having a hard time duplicating the task.

[Tom_Doak]

Mike Sweeney:

I did not intend the last paragraph of my previous post to imply that things at Erin Hills needed to be rebuilt ... I thought that's what Neal Meagher had implied, and I didn't understand his line of reasoning.  But apparently I misinterpreted his earlier post.

[John Kirk]

100 yards is not a long walk between tees.  3 miles per hour is a moderately brisk walking pace, typical for walking golfers.  That translates to 264 yards per minute.  100 yards is covered in less than 30 seconds.  At that pace it would be counterproductive to use a shuttle.

Pumpkin Ridge is an extremely easy walk, and I would guess the green to tee walks there average about 60-70 yards.  Lots of great courses have 100 yard walks on average.

I can't overstress how important I think this is.

[CHrisB]

John,

The reason there was a shuttle ride between #4 and #5 was that the USAPL Committee set the tee on the 366-yard tee box, which is 137 yards shorter than the back tee box which is closest to #4 green. It would have been a 225-250 yard walk which really wouldn't have been too bad (we ended up waiting on that tee anyway). I'm really not sure why they had us play that tee.

The shuttle ride between #9 and #10 was to skip the Bye Hole. In most tournaments, the Bye Hole will be used instead of the Dell Hole, which will create a 150-200 yard(?) walk from #6 green to #8 tee. Originally the Bye Hole was the 19th hole but the nines were reversed so it falls in the middle now.

The shuttle ride between #18 and the clubhouse was about 250-300 yards(?) although walkers could cross the 1st hole to cut the distance.

Here is the course map:

[David Kelly]

However, if this course were designed by Gil Hanse and opened in Valentine NE we'd all  be hailing it as the next Sand Hills.

Yes because he would have probably have done a better job.

Since we're throwing out unprovables.  

[Mike Sweeney]

The man can build a golf course and while the market players are copying the look I sense they are having a hard time duplicating the task.

Adam,

Don't worry. Tom knows I love him but somebody has to keep him in check here! Based on three opinions I heard of Sebonack yesterday (including one that likes it more than Shinnecock!) I have my work cut out for me! Of course that is a Nicklaus course.  

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