Pot v Kettle

[Sean Walsh]

Thought this was interesting

http://www.theage.com.au/news/golf/golfers-lending-names-not-always-par-for-the-course/2007/05/30/1180205337886.html

Firstly on Golf Design.

Secondly on an extremely American centric view of the world golf tours.

Nice he'll allow the European tour and others to be a "springboard" onto the PGA tour.  Thanks very generous..  

[PThomas]

Geoff Shackelford has more on the non-American tours possibly getting together

[Rick Shefchik]

No cat got out of the bag if Jack won't name names. This is the kind of "candor" that really irks me. He throws out a blanket accusation without naming specific players, so now any PGA Tour member who has ever been involved in the design of a course falls under suspicion. Who is it, Jack -- Lanny? Johnny? Watson? Davis Love? Please spill, or keep quiet.
 

[Tom_Doak]

Rick:

It is possible (though not likely) that Jack did single out a couple of player-architects but the writer chose not to name names.

[Phil Benedict]

Jack really is Carnac.  I hope Tiger doesn't grow up to be such a know-it-all.  Michelson is already there, although his flaws and goofy grin make him somewhat tolerable.

[JESII]

All it would take to compete with the US Tour is an organized effort (sounds like they're moving that way) and money (it's out there for sure, Middle East, Far East, Australia) and some of the Tour heads taking a back seat to the overall goal.

Is that last part feasible? Would the head of the Japan Tour be interestd in only a handful of events per year in his country? How about the Europeans? They travel a ton already, so probably not a big issue, but maybe they won't find the leading sponsors in Europe...

I think it would be tremendous if this came about.

[Rick Shefchik]

Tom,

I considered the possibility that the writer was protecting Jack by not printing the names. Having conducted a few thousand interviews myself, however, I think it's way more likely that the writer was dying for names, and Jack wouldn't provide.

[Phil Benedict]

It's interesting that Jack says the PGA Tour has 3 of the 4 majors.  That applies only as far as the country in which the tournaments are played.  Tim Finchem has nothing to do with any of the majors, which is why he promotes the Players so heavily.  If the Tour actually controlled majors, it would have some power over its stars, which of course it doesn't.

A world tour could work if Tiger decides to support it.  

[Doug Ralston]

One name that Jack should certainly have named, among those who have courses bearing their namesake but never having been onsite. That name is Jack Nicklaus!

I played Aston Oaks again today. Designed by Nicklaus Inc. The folks in the clubhouse say Jack has never been on the site.

Is this what he is referring to?

Doug

[JESII]

Doug,

When do you think the course hired those folks? About the time they began breaking ground...or maybe a bit closer to opening day?

[Doug Ralston]

JES;

Apparently they DID do the design. It is a nice course, too.

http://www.astonoaksgolfclub.com/

But Jack never came there. Of that I am certain, because the owners would certainly have bragged of it, instead of admitting that he did not.

Doug

[Phil_the_Author]

For me the only thing that Jack stated that I would take offense to, especially if I was Tiger was this:

"Tiger doesn't know anything about designing golf courses at the moment..."

Tiger may not know as much as Jack does, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if he hasn't been highly educating himself in design concepts 101!

He takes pride in everything he does and strikes me as someone who won't attempt anything that he is not convinced beforehamd that he will succeed at.

In an article that Nicklaus is taken to task over for not "naming names,"  I wonder why no one has asked him if he has proof that Tiger "doesn't know anything about designing golf courses at the moment."

One also needs to wonder why he would state this about Tiger in an interview of this type... could it be that he is now beginning to feel competition in this arena as well from the young lad?

[Tony_Muldoon]

Jack does seem  to be having it all ways here and just maybe someone has got his other "records" in mind too.


also from geoff Shacs'  site.

 "Cameron Morfit wonders if Tiger is taking on a bit too much at the expense of his game.


And he's hip-deep in the first project of Tiger Woods Design, a lavish golf course in Dubai called Al Ruwaya. The project has been such a challenge that he hesitated when asked Monday if he'd consider building a track to host his tournament, like Nicklaus did.

"I don't know," Woods said. "I'm still working on my very first golf course, and it is a lot harder than I thought it would be. I don't know how Jack has designed over 250 golf courses around the world. It's mind-boggling because this first one is very difficult."
"


They both seem to be indulging in "get yours in first"

[Don_Mahaffey]

For me the only thing that Jack stated that I would take offense to, especially if I was Tiger was this:

"Tiger doesn't know anything about designing golf courses at the moment..."

Tiger may not know as much as Jack does, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if he hasn't been highly educating himself in design concepts 101!

He takes pride in everything he does and strikes me as someone who won't attempt anything that he is not convinced beforehamd that he will succeed at.

In an article that Nicklaus is taken to task over for not "naming names,"  I wonder why no one has asked him if he has proof that Tiger "doesn't know anything about designing golf courses at the moment."

One also needs to wonder why he would state this about Tiger in an interview of this type... could it be that he is now beginning to feel competition in this arena as well from the young lad?

Philip,
Honestly,
I mean no disrespect whatsoever.
But, IMO, unless you have actually been involved in the creation of a golf course, you really don’t now shit about golf course architecture.
Oh, if you’re a great player, you might think you know something about shot values or some other BS, but taking a piece of land and creating a golf course is Golf Course Architecture. Unless you’ve spent some time on a construction site and actually seen what it takes…well then I think Jack is dead on. There’s a reason he’s gotten better and it not just because he’s learned how to hire help.

[Phil_the_Author]

Don, no disrespect felt!

I think you might have missed what I meant. Nicklaus interview elicited answers that were simply BEGGING for him to name names, yet he only did so once (in the article).

If all these players are simply getting paid just for their name and never show up on site, and he finds this professionally and personally offensive, then name them and own up to where he does it himself.

Again, when he could/should have identified players he considers acting unprofessionally and doesn't, I must ask why he would state that Tiger "doesn't know anything about designing golf courses at the moment..." when he (and everyone else) has yet to see his finished work. Yet I would not be afraid to make a healthy wager that after Tiger's course opens that Jack will play it and say at the very least that "It is a wonderful first effort..." or words to that effect.

I think his statement about Tiger was quite disingenuous.

As for the second part of your opinion, Tiger obviously is quite inexperienced, but frankly, even though he has not personally been involved in the creation of a golf course before this, I respectfully must disagree in your ascertion that he doesn't "know shit about golf course architecture."

Working the ground and bringing out of it what your mind pictured, drawing your concepts out on paper; he is undoubtedly greatly deficient in these areas.

Appreciating forms and lay of the land challenges to the game on many levels he has demonstrated that is innate to his thinking otherwise he wouldn't have had the success playing that he has. His game is more than just hitting a long drive and hitting wedges close to holes. He has an inventive and creative mind when it comes to visualizing shots and attempting them. This certainly is translatable to the design process. It is what the practicing architect calls risk and reward options.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Philip,
You do write well. Me, my poor brain works at warp speed while my hands and mouth tag far behind and I fight getting my point across, so let me be clear.
I believe that just because one can write well, play golf well, or study well, does not mean one can build a good golf course. Of course if one has the right sort of person who is willing to fund an education then one can show up from time to time and “get things right”.
But, if one wishes to actually be good at GCA then they ought to be able to describe what needs to be done to get it like they want. They don’t teach that sort of thing at tour school.  
And looking at old maps and debating about where the tee or trap should be isn’t nearly like building something from scratch.

[Adam Clayman]

Mr. Nicklaus seems to be justifying his recent fee increases.
 

Doug, As I understand it, they have all levels of fees. One, i'm sure includes zero site visits.

[Mike Hendren]

An ancedote for what it's worth:

I recently toured Nicklaus Design's daily fee Bear Creek course north of Nashville with the owner and his project manager.  Jackie Nicklaus is the architect of record.  

According to the principals, Jack has been on site and spent a significant amount of time there.  They were impressed that he spent approximately 45 minutes making changes to the first hole alone, and opined that they feel like they got a two-for-one deal, architect wise.  They also have a tape of Jack's interview at Augusta where he mentioned the course and likened the setting to Muirfield Village.  

Perhaps they got caught up in the Jack Nicklaus aura (I did spy a photograph of them with Jack and Barbara in the cabin of a private jet hanging on the wall), but they were very pleased to "get Jack for the price of Jackie."

Mike