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Andrew Summerell

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Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« on: May 27, 2007, 01:51:43 AM »
Hypothetical:

If reciprocal rights (the right to play another course, that has an arrangement with your club, as if you were a member) were arranged in line with who designed the course. What architect’s course would you be a member of ? Why ? (It could be because of the quality of courses involved, or it might be geographic, or it might be because of the amount of courses you would have access to)

E.g. If you were a member of a MacKenzie course, it would mean you could play Augusta National, Cypress Point, Royal Melbourne, etc. as a member, any time you wanted.


Mark_F

Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2007, 01:59:26 AM »
Doak's Ballyneal, because I love what I have seen in pictures and descriptions of the medium and short par fours, and the greens look fantastic.  Sebonack just sounds too hard.

I also like remote courses that take you away from the big cities.

And I haven't been to Colorado yet.  :)

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2007, 02:05:45 AM »
Mark,

You would already have reciprocal rights to Ballyneal.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2007, 02:09:51 AM »
One consideration: If you chose, say, Mackenzie then you wouldn't have a ton of American courses to choose from. If you choose Ross or Robert Trent Jones, you'd have hundreds to choose from. Quality vs. Quantity makes this question even more interesting.

In my part of the country it's tough to argue against Mackenzie: Meadow Club with occasional road trips to Pasatiempo, Cypress Point, and Valley Club.

Were location not a factor, Mackenzie, Tillie, Dye, Doak, Crenshaw? Who's to say?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2007, 02:10:33 AM by Matt_Cohn »

Mark_F

Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2007, 02:30:37 AM »
Andrew,

How come?

One of the earlier directors of St Andrews Beach was working on getting recipricals with NSW and Cape Kidnappers, but that fell through with his untimely demise from the project.

Never heard of any other reciprocals.  If I have them for Ballyneal, the $50,000 was well spent, huh? :)

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2007, 04:05:02 AM »
Andrew,

How come?


Mark,

It’s a hypothetical question. The first post states that  IF  reciprocals were organised allowing you access to any course designed by the designer who designed your course, which designer would you choose & why.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2007, 09:14:55 AM »
Andrew:

I think I would take MacKenzie.  I'm already a member of Crystal Downs, which is not a bad place to relax for the US summer season.  In the winter I could go to California or to Australia and have some good courses to visit; I could even hang out with the posh crowd in Buenos Aires if I wanted a bit of variety.  I would miss not having more links courses to play, but at least there is Lahinch.

Terry Thornton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2007, 09:56:54 PM »
Andrew,

How hypothetical MacKenzie does the course have to be, you'd get on to everything half decent and above in Australia if you believed all you read.
Would Donald Ross be a wise choice for the US as he's 'credited' with 400+ I've heard?

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2007, 03:47:24 AM »
For us Brits it would be difficult to overlook Mr Colt who had a hand in so many of our great courses.

At Deal we have over 20 reciprocals around the world so we are extremely lucky to have access to some amazing courses especially in Australia.
Cave Nil Vino

Mark_F

Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2007, 04:10:14 AM »
Andrew,

In a hypothetical world, I wouldn't be a member of St Andrews Beach.

Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2007, 04:15:22 AM »
Why not?

Mark_F

Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2007, 04:22:31 AM »
Shane,

- The drive.  It's a pain in the arse when I finish work at 1.30 and can't get down to my club to play during the week at this time of year.  Not a problem I imagine you have?

- The lack of member input into club decisions.

- The clowns that run the place.

- The crap the clowns that run the place constantly come up with in regard as to why things aren't being done.

- The massively changed nature of the project.  I didn't sign up for a club to have 900 corporate members playing the second course.

- The clowns that run the place.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2007, 05:36:30 AM by Mark Ferguson »

Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2007, 05:13:15 AM »
Shane,

- The drive.  It's a pain in the arse when I finish work at 1.30 and can't get down to my club to play during the week at this time of year.  Not a problem I imagine you have?

- The lack of member input into club decisions.

- The tossers that run the place.

- The crap the tossers that run the place constantly come up with in regard as to why things aren't being done.

- The massively changed nature of the project.  I didn't sign up for a club to have 900 corporate members playing the second course.

- The tossers that run the place.

Thats a shame Mark. Its such a fantastic golf course. Can you sell up and join somewhere else closer to home?

Shane

Mark_F

Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2007, 05:44:39 AM »
Thats a shame Mark. Its such a fantastic golf course. Can you sell up and join somewhere else closer to home?

Shane

Shane,

It might be easier to find a job that finishes at 12.30 :)

I did wonder a few months back whether I should try to force the issue and get my money back, or at least most of it and write the rest off, then try to join either Woodlands or Peninsula, but much as I like those courses (and clubs), I do like Gunnamatta and what exists of the club at the moment, as, myself excepting, of course, the members are a good  bunch of blokes.

I guess I am just (nervously) hoping that it will end up okay in the end.

Looks like The Fingal will be put off another year at best at this stage too, which begets the question of how they are going to finance course maintenance in the future, but that's another story for another day...




Shane Gurnett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2007, 06:24:07 AM »
I hope they do get the clubhouse and the second course up and running soon Mark. Some of those Fingal holes look fantastic on paper. The place just needs a kick along to really cement itself as a top class facility.

Have many members sold up and moved on due to the lack of progress?

TEPaul

Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2007, 06:47:11 AM »
I would pick architect Tommy Birdsong because I could then play Fernandina Beach Municipal GC every day.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2007, 08:32:48 AM »
Shane/Mark

This discussion appears to show the real benefit of belonging to a members club owned by and run by the members, for the benefit of the members.
Cave Nil Vino

wsmorrison

Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2007, 09:25:50 AM »
Without question, it would be the courses of Harry Shapland Colt.  Given the only course he was involved with within 20 miles of me is Pine Valley, I've got the proximity component covered.  Plus I would have other courses to play elsewhere in the US, Canada, England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2007, 09:28:42 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Kyle Harris

Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2007, 10:05:27 AM »
Wayne,

Living in Philadelphia, you HAVE to agree that a William Flynn membership would be as near to ideal as any. How many Top 100 (Golfweek) Flynn courses are within an hour's drive of Philadelphia?

Add Shinnecock as a weekend trip...

Flynn is definitely my vote - the proximity of the majority of his great courses takes the cake.

wsmorrison

Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2007, 12:08:31 PM »
Kyle,

Given that you get to include a number of top 100 caliber golf courses and Merion (part Flynn), I think your idea has a lot of merit.  Of course, the original premise does not stipulate that you have to give up current membership  ;)

The GW top-100s by Flynn include:

(3) Shinnecock Hills
(4) Merion
(21) TCC, Brookline
(46) Cascades
(56) Cherry Hills
(58) Kittansett
(67) Huntingdon Valley
(70) Lancaster
(72) Philadelphia Country
(78) Lehigh
(94) Rolling Green
(98) Manufacturers

So that yields 7 GW top-100 courses in the Philadelphia area alone.  12 of Flynn's 52 courses make the list.  Flynn also did some design work, a considerable amount of agronomic and construction work at Pine Valley (2) and various amounts of design work at Creek Club (84) and Sunnehanna (97).

I guess I'll change my mind and suggest a tie between Colt and Flynn.  Given that Flynn designed or significantly contributed the design of my two favorite courses in the US, Shinnecock Hills and Merion East, the choice isn't without question.  Thank you for pointing out the error in my ways
 ;)

Eric Franzen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2007, 12:19:59 PM »


How can you go wrong with Southern California and Aberdeen in the mix?

Mark_F

Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2007, 01:06:53 AM »
I hope they do get the clubhouse and the second course up and running soon Mark. Some of those Fingal holes look fantastic on paper. The place just needs a kick along to really cement itself as a top class facility.

Have many members sold up and moved on due to the lack of progress?

Shane,

Ahh, the clubhouse.  A friend and I who boldy ventured into GCPL's head office with a fistful of questions a couple of months back were told the clubhouse, barring any objections, would begin in April.

Well, there were no objections, and it is now almost June, and nothing has been done yet. Aside from sending the members a PDF plan of the clubhouse and driving range.  If you want a copy, just PM and you shall receive...

Regarding the Fingal, I phoned the other director 5-6 weeks ago to ask about the course, and was assured that they planned to have the Fingal finished construction by the end of September this year, so that they could get a good six month growing season and open for Easter 2008.

That would mean, of course, that construction would have to start at the end of June at the latest, with irrigation starting sometime soon, and I don't see it happening.  

I hope it does, as you are right, if the clubhouse and Fingal are clearly in the throes of construction it would probably be the impetus the project needs. The Fingal does have some top shelf stuff there, especially 5,6,7,8 11,16, and 17.

No members are allowed to sell until GCPL have transferred 75% of their shares, and the Fingal has been open for a year.
At the moment there are about 250 members, and I would hazard a guess that at least 25% of them would have bailed if they could have.  

I know a couple who are even more annoyed than me, which is really saying something.

Still, I suppose those National members must be glad of the delays.  They won't see the share price drop to 5K for another year or so yet.  :)

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architectural Reciprocal Rights
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2007, 05:07:06 AM »
Without question, it would be the courses of Harry Shapland Colt.  Given the only course he was involved with within 20 miles of me is Pine Valley, I've got the proximity component covered.  Plus I would have other courses to play elsewhere in the US, Canada, England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales.

Hard to beat Colt but he travelled/advised more widely than thought.  (Apologies if some of these are solely the  work of his associates. Extracted from the Colt association website. )


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