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Chris_Clouser

Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« on: May 21, 2007, 02:13:15 PM »
Considering that outside of the fellow Hoosiers on this site and couple of others that have been fortunate to be blessed by playing golf in our state like Matt Ward and Glenn Spencer.  ;D  I thought I might try to start providing some looks at Indiana courses that are possible stops if you are coming through our fine state.  Most people are aware of places like Wolf Run, Crooked Stick, Sycamore Hills and Victoria National, but the real strength of our golf in Indiana is at public venues that are of a high quality and in many instances of equal standing of the private courses in our state.  

The first course I'll provide some info on is the Golf Club of Indiana in Zionsville, IN just northwest of Indianapolis off of I-65.

The Golf Club of Indiana was the first “CCFAD” design in the Indy metro area, built in 1974.  It was the brainchild of future PGA President Mickey Powell and a young architect named Charles Maddox, Jr.  Powell wanted to create a course for public access that had the feel of a private country club and the challenge of a professional tour course.  For the most part they succeeded without going overboard in any one area.  
   The course contains several highs and lows.  The maintenance is top notch, without being over the top.  Grass heights on the facility are almost perfect.  The rough is high enough to be a problem while also being able to find the ball easily in most cases.  The greens roll smooth, but are not ultra fast and have some fine contouring.  The hole designs offer strategic choices off of the tee, but have some severe penalties if a bad shot is struck in many instances.  The difficulty is without question as this was at one time a host of the preliminary rounds of the Tour Q-School.  
   The course has seventy bunkers that for the most part are large with sand covered faces and have a slight resemblance to those found at Southern Hills (if anyone is following those threads).  Water is found on 15 of the 18 holes in the form of several small ponds and a creek that winds throughout the course.  The creek was one of the few natural features on the original site and is used effectively.  The ponds do force strategic choices to be made.
   There are negatives as well.  There was little significant difference in any of the greens.  All of the greens are defended by two bunkers, accompanied by large shoulders leading into the putting surface.  A false front entrance is added to the mix as the greens are a push-up style of design.  This creates a climate where bump and run shots are difficult to attempt.  The greens also slope from back to front.  The back side of the greens have some variety.  About half of the greens have narrow plateaus while the remainder feature a swale that is often placed between the shoulders coming in from the backside bunkers.  The middle portions of the greens often roll off to the side, but there is some variety as one green has a trough running through the middle, another contains a couple of Maxwell-type rolls.  One green does stand out, the thirteenth.  It has an expanded surface to the left side that creates a punchbowl effect.  So some possibilities do exist for some varied pin locations around the course.  But the day we were there everything was on the front of the green just past the defenses.  
   The Golf Club has a rather boring routing when one first glances at it with balanced nines of par 36 and four par fives and threes.  The only real natural feature that existed on the property was the creek that now runs through several holes.  Maddox and Powell used the creek in various ways around the course.  But to their credit, at no time does it run directly in front of a green and create a forced carry into the putting surface.  There were no natural landforms to design around so a simple back and forth routing was created.  As a result, three of the one-shot holes run in the same direction (south to north) and three of the par fives run towards the south end of the course.    

Routing of the course


   But the people I talked with during the round did not even take notice of these limitations of the course.  It solidified two thoughts in my head.  Most people don’t care about the finer details of golf course design and most people don’t recognize the difference between good (as in the case of GCI), great and world-class designs.  

I apologize for the photo quality as it was very overcast when we played.  

From the tips the course plays at 7151, slope of 132 and 73.6 rating.  The next set of tees up is 6536/126/70.8.  Par is 72 for those that care.  

Holes of note:

Hole 4 – 412 yards:  A very good dogleg that winds around one pond on the right and then has another on the left side.  Either you test water off the tee or on the approach.  The green featured a slightly large back shelf and created a two-tiered green that was enjoyable to play but being beyond the hole is very dangerous.  One of only two holes that do not run North-South.

looking back down the hole from behind the green


Hole 5 – 454 yards:  The most difficult hole on the course and played into the wind the day we played.  The narrow landing area between bunkers and water is a challenge.  From the pro tees, the hole actually goes over the water and is quite an intimidating shot.  The second to the green is threatened by water on the left.

tee shot on the fifth


Hole 8 – 158 yards:  A mid-iron shot into the wind with deep bunkers short and long is death.  The green slopes well towards the front.  The wind might actually make this a tougher hole coming from behind.    

8 from the side of the green


Hole 12 – 525 yards:  The best hole on the course was the twelfth.  It is considered the signature hole on the course and rightly so.  The twelfth uses the creek wonderfully to run along the left side for the tee shot and then bisecting the fairway a little over halfway and then running along the right side.  The second half of the hole is defined by a large hardwood in the fairway that requires the player to either lay back just over the creek or play out to the left and risk going into the pond on that side.  The green entrance is seemingly a little more elevated than some of the other greens around the course.

12 from the fairway


Hole 13 – 211 yards:  Perhaps the toughest par three as it played directly into the wind when we played.  Also featured the one green that had a significant difference from the rest of the course with a punchbowl location on the left side.  

13 from tee


Hole 16 – 426 yards:  The number 2 handicap hole on the course.  Plays straight south with a bend around the deepest bunkers on the course.  Drives that go to far up the left will get wet in the pond.  If this plays into the wind it becomes the toughest hole on the course.  If not for the one evergreen on the right side, it would be a very visually stimulating hole from the tee.

16 coming up fairway
 

Hole 17 – Very similar to the eighth in length and layout.  But the green was very fun as I sank a 25 foot double breaking birdie putt.

17 from the tee.


Also a view from the side to see the typical contouring found at GCI.


With the unusual wind for that time of year, the course played different from the original design intent.  Generally, the wind blows from the south or southwest.  Complicating things even further, the course was setup for a charity outing and all of the pins, except for a few later in the round, were placed just past the false front entrance to the greens.  It would have been nice to see the pins in various positions.   This would have undoubtedly elicited much more charm from the course and makes me want to come back and give it one more chance.  
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 05:11:26 PM by Chris_Clouser »

Matt_Ward

Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2007, 02:19:07 PM »
Chris:

FYI -- the head profesisonal was Mickey Powell -- later as you mentioned correctly became president of the national PGA. Mickey Wright was the famed LPGA player as you well know.

I agree with you that very few words are ever mentioned about the club but I have to say that the more recent CCFAD layouts have indeed carried forward the legacy that GC of Indiana started.

Chris_Clouser

Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2007, 02:20:48 PM »
OOOPSS.  I'll fix it right now.  I can't believe I put that in there.  

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2007, 03:02:53 PM »
Chris,

Thanks for posting the photos. In your writeup, you say "Maddox and Wright used the creek in various ways around the course.  But to their credit, at no time does it run directly in front of a green and create a forced carry into the putting surface."

I can think of a few holes that are among my favorites that feature a creek running directly in front of the green. I'm interested to know why you view this as a negative.

Russ Miller

Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2007, 03:26:22 PM »
Chris -

Thanks for the review.  I grew up south of Indianapolis and go back from time to time to visit friends and family.  I am always looking for places to play, so I enjoyed this review and look forward to any others you do in the future on courses in Indy.  Two courses in the area that I played in the last year and really enjoyed are Trophy Club and Heartland Crossing.

Looking at your pictures of Golf Club of Indiana, which I have never played, that tree on the 12th hole looks interesting.  It seems odd to see a tree that big, in the fairway and that close to the green.  It looks like you'd almost have to hit over it.  You describe the hole in a positive light, though, so it must not have been too invasive.  

Chris_Clouser

Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2007, 04:23:12 PM »
Russ,

There is actually some room out to the left.  Not a ton, and you have to get fairly close to the water or be well left of the fairway.  The second shot on that hole is the toughest, unless you end up right behind the tree.    

The Golf Club is not flawless by any means, but it is a solid course with some very good holes.

Next time you come in town, shoot me a PM and perhaps we can meet to play somewhere.

Dan,

I agree that there are some wonderful holes that have that setup, but most of those that I have encountered were longer par fours or really short par fives.  The creek is used mostly in this manner on par fives at GCI and it crosses at the point where it makes you decide whether you are going to make an attempt to either go for the green or get really close for a short pitch or really lay back on your second.  I'm not the longest hitter on the planet so the creeks crossed at the exact point that it made me make a decision on what approach to take on the hole.  For really long hitters, they probably aren't a consideration on their second on these longer par fives.  For a public course with a wide range of players, I think a creek crossing right in front of a green will cause a lot more havoc than one crossing 75 to 100 yards short of the green.  At least with the people I play with it usually does.  
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 04:32:50 PM by Chris_Clouser »

John Nixon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2007, 04:32:45 PM »
Thanks for the pics, Chris. I look forward to future threads on other courses in the area.

I've only played GCI once, many years ago, when I was a terrible golfer, rather than the mediocre one I am today. The course was way too hard and unforgiving for me then. I probably owe it another round.

Doug Ralston

Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2007, 06:22:55 PM »
Thanks Chris;

I have GC of I on my Kentucky Lung Card for $39. Was not certain what type of course it was. Looks like we must try it.

I have played several courses I have enjoyed among Indiana publics, and have several more on my list. I have played Trophy Club, Purgatory, Prairie View, Coyote Crossing, Otter Creek, Sultan's Run, Old Capital, and Buck Point, among the best. I still want to play Rock Hollow, The Fort, Cambridge, Harrison Hills, and now GC of I.

So keep telling us about the 'playable', and especially with nice pix.

Doug

Andy Troeger

Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2007, 07:57:16 PM »
Chris,
Thanks for the post and pictures and I look forward to some of your future posts on this Indiana series. I'd never seen photos of GCI before. Looks like it would have been worthwhile to play, maybe not as good as The Fort or Bear Slide, but better than Hanging Tree (Bent Tree), where the creek drove me nuts!

Matt_Ward

Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2007, 10:52:11 AM »
Chris, et al:

Would you still have GC of Indiana among the top ten public courses in the Hoosier State ?

Chris_Clouser

Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2007, 11:17:56 AM »
Matt,

I would say no.  There have been just too many courses built in the last 10 to 15 years that are better.  Maybe top 20 at best, but towards the end of that list from what I have gathered talking with others about the state's top public courses.  It is  a level below courses like Rock Hollow, Purgatory, Prairie View, The Fort and Trophy Club.  Not to mention places I'm not as familiar with like the Warren Course, Blackthorn or Sultan's Run.  But I do think it is superior to somplace like a Plum Creek, as an example.

Doug Ralston

Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2007, 12:47:43 PM »
Chris;

You should play Sultan's Run at top conditions; it is a stunner [love Liddy]. I am glad you mentioned Blackthorn. I have not played it but want it on my list.

Chris, I have a question that I do not know who can answer. It seems to me that virtually every course in Indiana have their 'vanity pictures' on their website done by the same guys, and they are AWFUL! It would be better in most cases if they did not use them at all. Who is doing these things? Why do courses put up with this lack of quality.

If you want to see good quality pix, including some from Indiana courses, go to: http://www.golfclevelandohio.com/G2003-main.htm and look under 'trips'. THIS is the quality I appreciate. A course photo should awaken a desire to come there, not extinguish it.

Doug

John Nixon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2007, 02:09:19 PM »
Chris, et al:

Would you still have GC of Indiana among the top ten public courses in the Hoosier State ?

I agree with Chris, not in my top 10, perhaps it makes top 20 merely because there are still quite a few of the top courses in the area I've yet to play. And I would put Plum Creek ahead of it as well - because I'm better than he is at putting my blinders on and ignoring the surroundings.

Again, it's been a long time since I played GCI, but with little thinking I'd put all the usual suspects ahead of it, as well as Coffin (maintainence issues aside, it's a vastly more interesting design to me - another Liddy), Bent Tree, West Chase and Eagle Creek.

John Nixon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2007, 02:11:45 PM »
It seems to me that virtually every course in Indiana have their 'vanity pictures' on their website done by the same guys, and they are AWFUL! It would be better in most cases if they did not use them at all. Who is doing these things? Why do courses put up with this lack of quality.

Doug, I couldn't agree with you more. The two that come to my mind are the Bear Slide and Fort websites. Two of the top courses in the state with abysmal pics to show for it.

Matt_Ward

Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2007, 04:18:31 PM »
The key aspect that I marvel at when Indiana golf is discussed is how good a number of the public courses are that are on basically flat terrain.

The top tier ones are far from boring -- e.g., The Trophy Club, Purgatory, etc, etc, and they do provide a wide range in terms of overall routing, hole diversity and challenges.

If aspiring architects wish to learn how to design on flat parcels of land go to the Hoosier State and by all means skip the State of Florida. ;D

P.S. Gents, I have to say Rock Hollow is vastly overrated among the top tier courses that people generally mention among the public tier of courses in the state.

Russ Miller

Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2007, 04:27:15 PM »
Just out of curiosity have any of you Hoosiers played Timbergate (in Edinburgh I think)?  I have not, but I have seen it from the interstate and have thought it looked interesting (at least while passing by at 70 to 80 mph).  It appears to be completed devoid of trees--like it was a cornfield that they replaced with a golf course.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2007, 09:34:47 PM by Russ Miller »

Chris_Clouser

Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2007, 05:31:42 PM »
Russ,

I have not been there, but it has received some noteriety.  It is perhaps the perfect place to go while my wife treks to the nearby outlet mall.  It is on my radar to get to soon.

Russ Miller

Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2007, 05:34:11 PM »
Chris - Let me know if/when you decide to go because my wife likes that outlet mall too ;D

Andy Troeger

Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2007, 07:36:40 PM »

P.S. Gents, I have to say Rock Hollow is vastly overrated among the top tier courses that people generally mention among the public tier of courses in the state.

Matt,
Since that might be one of the few courses I've played more often than you I'm going to respectfully disagree. I love the mix of holes at Rock Hollow (except for #15--par 5). I've not played the entire Indy set, but of what I have seen there's no public course in Indiana that I would clearly put higher (a few on the same level).

I would tend to agree with Chris' guess on maybe it being top 20 publics in Indiana.

Russ,
I have the same thought as you, but it reminds me too much of the look of the Legends of Indiana, which also seems to have come out of a cornfield and doesn't do much for me.

Matt_Ward

Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2007, 11:25:50 AM »
Andy:

With all due respect -- you need to play a much wider array of Indiana public courses. I don't doubt there's much to like at Rock Hollow but there's been a good bit more added to the Hoosier public golf scene since.

Andy Troeger

Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2007, 01:24:32 PM »
Matt,
You're being pretty general. What's actually better? I've played 100+ courses in Indiana.

Of the ones I've not seen...the four that I could imagine might have a shot at being better than Rock Hollow are Purgatory, Prairie View, Trophy Club, and the Brickyard.  Of the 100+ I have seen, Rock Hollow ranks #6 behind Wolf Run, Crooked Stick, South Bend CC, Sycamore Hills, and Sultan's Run.

With all due respect, maybe you should give Rock Hollow another visit!  ;D

Matt_Ward

Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2007, 01:52:16 PM »
Andy:

I've been to the Hoosier state a good bit over the last 25 years and Rock Hollow is a fine layout but you are more of a fan of the place than I.


Chris_Clouser

Re:Golf Club of Indiana (w/pics)
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2007, 01:57:29 PM »
Andy,

I've seen the Brickyard and it is extremely overrated in my mind.  The setting and the surrounds are very eye-catching.  It reeks of mid-america and all of that stuff, but when one looks at the architecture, it is below the level of the other courses you mention in the Indy area.  

The thing is that it is one of the few courses in the state that a significant number of "out of towners" have played and they get overwhelmed with the "extras" and that elevates the architecture in their minds and the resulting rankings.  At least that's the way I see IMHO.

Now if some of those "out of towners" would venture out to other places perhaps we would see a larger number of Indiana courses make that top 100 public list.