Is the architect or the golf course the determining factor

[George Pazin]

George,
This thread was not meant to insult.  But I do  think there is much validity to my question when it is addressed to architecture afficanados/geeks/nuts....
Mike

Okay, fair enough.

So what is your evidence for your feeling? Can you name (or describe) one individual who has expressed a preference for an inferior dead guy course to a superior unknown's course? And do you know for a fact the reasons behind said preference?

I'm a little tired of posters using suppositions to support their notion that gca'ers are biased toward dead guys or favored current architects without providing one shred of evidence.

Maybe gca'ers or other architecture geeks like dead guy courses because the dead guys did a great job. And maybe they like C&C or Tom D courses because they do a great job.

[wsmorrison]

Tyler,

Those numbers are a bit surprising.  I guess I am out of whack with the avid golfers that were surveyed.  Thankfully.  It is curious that the membership itself wasn't a factor to be considered.  It sure is important to me, though it doesn't subordinate everything else, but it would conditioning, amenities, green fees, speed of play, grounds maintenance, closeness to home, ability to score well, restaurant and food service and name designer.

I pinch myself because I am lucky that my club is superlative in every regard.

[John Kavanaugh]

George,
This thread was not meant to insult.  But I do  think there is much validity to my question when it is addressed to architecture afficanados/geeks/nuts....
Mike

Okay, fair enough.

So what is your evidence for your feeling? Can you name (or describe) one individual who has expressed a preference for an inferior dead guy course to a superior unknown's course? And do you know for a fact the reasons behind said preference?

I'm a little tired of posters using suppositions to support their notion that gca'ers are biased toward dead guys or favored current architects without providing one shred of evidence.

Maybe gca'ers or other architecture geeks like dead guy courses because the dead guys did a great job. And maybe they like C&C or Tom D courses because they do a great job.

George,

It is a common belief that Sutlan's Run by Tim Liddy is a better course than The Hill (now known as The Ross) course at French Lick.  I will always prefer the course at French Lick and drive by Sultan's Run to play it.  This would be because of the history of the course and the pedigree of the architect.  The courses are around 15 miles apart with Sultan's Run being that much closer to my home and more expensive to play.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
If the survey can be used as any kind of a guide, then 5 out of 100 respondents think the architect is important. I don't think that's surprising, although I am fairly surprised that swimming pools and tennis courts are such frequent factors, especially in a survey directed at 'avid' golfers.

What isn't surprising is the number(14) of factors cited. Once again, it's all about the individual and what he or she sees as important.

I guess it's also not a surprise that the survey, described by you as the genesis for your thread, makes no distinction between old dead guys and new live ones. It only reveals the percentage of respondents who thought a 'name architect' was important enough to list.

What is yet to be known is why you care what others use as criteria for their decisions.


 



 
 
 

   

[John Kavanaugh]

Maybe Mike cares because almost every damn carpet bagging architecture lover who trods their sorry ass through the south passes up his invitations and plays the same architects courses over and over.

[Matthew Hunt]

I would venture to guess that a great may people may not even know who designed their course.  

Most people do not know that most of the holes at RCD No.2 are Tom Morris's and it has had redesigns from Colt, MacKenzie and Donald Steel. (I think I could do a great redesign Including restoring some Tom Morris Gems!)

[John Kavanaugh]

I would also join Lookout Mountain over The Honors Course.  I came to this conclusion trying to think if there is a city where I would not choose to join the Raynor course in town no matter if there is another course clearly better.  I think this example fits perfectly.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Maybe Mike cares because almost every damn carpet bagging architecture lover who trods their sorry ass through the south passes up his invitations and plays the same architects courses over and over.-JakaB

Jaka,
Well, that's their mistake for not being curious.  


edit: and not being gentlemen

[Mike_Young]

George,
This thread was not meant to insult.  But I do  think there is much validity to my question when it is addressed to architecture afficanados/geeks/nuts....
Mike

Okay, fair enough.

So what is your evidence for your feeling? Can you name (or describe) one individual who has expressed a preference for an inferior dead guy course to a superior unknown's course? And do you know for a fact the reasons behind said preference?

I'm a little tired of posters using suppositions to support their notion that gca'ers are biased toward dead guys or favored current architects without providing one shred of evidence.

Maybe gca'ers or other architecture geeks like dead guy courses because the dead guys did a great job. And maybe they like C&C or Tom D courses because they do a great job.

My evidence???
How bout when you play an old dead guy course a few times and people like it but really don't know who the designer was....How long before old donald's name pops up some where....he either came thru town for a day and blessed it or stopped in the snack sack to pork the snack shack girl or something...but if it is half way good someone will put a name on it......
  Well let's see.....several times I hae seen dead guy geeks describe an old original bunker site that was never anything more than where some tree stumps had rotted....have seen dead guy freaks drooling over a dead guy green that had been redone and moved less than 10 years ago.....but my best example was listening to an architecture geek describe what TD was doing on a particular hole at BD not knowing that tom had done PD.
George, you seem to insinate that I don't like dead guy courses or courses by TD or C&C.....not so.. at all...BUT I can show you a lot of bad dead guy stuff that is never mentioned here.   I would venture to say that on a percentage basis there was more bad dead guy stuff than new guy stuff......And also I have posted here enough to be able to say dead guy/geek/frea/nerd or whatever....cause I am probably included.....
I think I am realistic enough to know that the golf architecture business is really a regional business and most of us are never known outside of our region....I have actually come to the conclsion a few years ago that most dead guy freaks were fed what they were supposed to like....so all that matters to most architects is that the clients like what he does and continue to keep us in business.....this site is a small minority...very small.....
Mike

Jim,
Why do I care about the criteria?
Because it helps my argument when selling a job......#1.  

Mike

JK,
You always have an invitation to any of my courses......

[George Pazin]

Well, there's a lot of things in that run-on paragraph, but I'm confused as to what your original point was meant to be.

I didn't insinuate anything regarding your feelings toward dead guys. I defended the posters that you seemed to slight in your original post, implying that they have no logical rationale in choosing clubs to join.

You know more than damn near anyone else on here - why not start a thread about something you saw a dead guy do wrong, rather than choosing to criticise those who have a love for golf course architecture, however misguided you may feel their appreciation is?

Posters can learn from bad dead guy work as well. Maybe we need someone to teach us, rather than chastice us.

[Mike_Young]

George,
I am in no way chastising anyone.....and I don't know more than anyone on here.....I just made a statement of opinion that I feel is correct but it doesn't mean I don't respect your right to your opinion.....
This is just entertainment....have fun...
Take care,
Mike