Is the sequencing of holes irrelevant ?

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom D,

Hard to say why it turned out that way.  It was designed in a planned residential community, so perhaps they were trying to leave more room for housing where the first nine was.  It ended up with a number of short sharp layup doglegs.  It would have been shorter still, but for a 600 yard par 5 on the front.  The housing certainly wasn't there when the course was built, and there still looks like there was room for a more balanced routing.  

I notice that they've reversed the nines recently and interchanged the old par 5 18th for the old par 4 9th.  Not sure of the wisdom of putting the hard nine first.  But, interchanging the two holes provides a little better length balancing.  

The old back nine may have been the hardest nine holes I've ever played - brutally long and very narrow through unrecoverable jungle.  I wonder what the owners were trying to accomplish?  Or whether Von Hagge had a free hand and was having fun?

All in all a very quirky routing.  Certainly memorable.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

We did not discuss the sequence of holes at Pacific Dunes all that much, surprisingly.  I walked a group of people (Mike Keiser, Josh Lesnik, Jim Seeley) through that routing without even having formulated a scorecard for it -- and everybody liked the sequence and flow so much that they didn't object to the scorecard when I wrote it up on a napkin afterward.

We could have changed the numbering to make the card more conventional (and to make returning nines), but everybody loved it the way we walked it.  

So then you would state that sequencing or the ordering and balancing of par is of little significance ?  Yes ?

Maybe I should always take that approach, instead of putting it on paper and letting everyone critique the lack of "balance".  

A lot of this talk about balance is a scorecard-watching exercise, whereas on the ground it is possible for the holes to flow beautifully from one to another even as the card looks weird.  Pacific Dunes is a great example of that.

Then can I conclude that sequencing or the ordering/balancing of par is unimportant, or at least relagated further down the totem pole when weighed against the merits of the final product ?

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

I'm curious how much discussion there was concerning the transition between the 13th and 14th holes at PD?  While I didn't mind one bit, was there any concern that one had to walk 60-70 yards back down the fairway to get to the next hole?  Was there discussion to put a trail behind the 13th green that would go over to the 14th tee box via the backside of that massive dune?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kalen Braley,

There are similar transitions between # 14 and # 15, # 15 and # 16 at Friar's Head.

I don't necessarily think extended walks disrupt the continuity when features, such as a dune, water, etc., etc., are involved

[Kalen Braley]

Extended walks is not so much my question on this one, but more that you must walk back down the fairway that you just came up. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they kept that dune there, it is awesome, was just curious if it was considered to run the path behind the dune to the next tee box.

[RichMacafee]

At Kingston Heath, we have been playing the course in a different order on Wednesdays for almost 2 years now. This was to create two 9's which meant we could accommodate more players in the men's midweek comp, and still run a ladies comp in the morning. Operationally, it has worked really well, it has freed up the timesheet and quickened the pace of play. In the normal sequencing our 6th hole comes back to the clubhouse - so it makes it hard to have 2-tee starts.

Having played the course the 'right' way for 20 years, I am still struggling to come to terms with the Wednesday sequencing, because as Tom.D. said, the course has a very distinct 'flow' to it which I love. Obviously the holes are the same, but to me it is a different course with a different feel.

Someone playing the course for the first time on the 'Wednesday course' (which Ed.G will be doing in a months time ) would probably not think anything of it, but I will be certainly pointing out the usual sequencing and why I believe it works a lot better.