Help Solve Rye's Paradox (Pictures)

[ForkaB]

Mark

Am I still next to Margaret Thatcher on that board?

[Ed Tilley]

Craig, that's right. Rye's visitor policy has not changed; you have to write in advance.

Mark

I run a wine tasting / drinking evening for my cricket club every November. For this purpose I go over to France just before to buy wine at significantly lower prices than in the UK. Last year I played at Royal St. Georges on the way at their winter rate.

A few questions:

- Should I be playing RSG, Rye, or Deal this year?
- I assume I would need to actually write to the secretary at Rye rather than just call or send an e-mail.
- Is their a winter rate at Rye (and RCP) - there isn't one mentioned on the website and I'm not sure it would be the done thing to ask.

Note I only have time for one round so can't combine two courses.

Ed

[Philip Gawith]

Mark - you sure got lucky with the weather down there. I have played Rye twice but the course was not looking like that! Severe rain and wind  - not together - I think obscured the course's full charms. More fool me - can't wait to go back.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Re "second shots," I searched the USGA's online library and couldn't find any references to the comment at all, Rye or otherwise.

Mark

[ForkaB]

Mark

I googled and the first hit was my "Home Course" piece on GCA about Dornoch.  It must be true.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Sorry Rich but you didn't hold the crown for long before a new challenger came along.

"an ardent admirer once contended that the hardest aspect of Rye is the second shots at the short holes."
Donald Steel  Classic Golf Links.  1992.  

Any earlier mention in print (he doesn't say when the ardent admirer uttered the phrase)?

[ForkaB]

Tony (and Mark)

As I said above, I have absolutely no idea who made the comment 1st or when and in reference to which hole and/or course.  What I do know is:

1.  I was first told of the "hardest shot is the 2nd to the 2nd" concept in 1981.  (BTW, doesn't "the 2nd to the 2nd" have a much more mellifluous and seductive ring to it than "the second shots at the short holes"....?)

2.  It was told to me then by Euan Currie, legendary barkeep and godfather to my first child, who attributed it to Eric Brown, legendary Scottish golfer and winning Ryder Cup Captain (1957) during a visit to Dornoch by Eric at which he paraded the Ryder Cup itself at the Burghfield House Hotel.

Keep searching, ye of little faith......

Rich

[Mark Bourgeois]

I have found reference to the "second to the second" phrase, but more significantly have found the "second shots on the short holes" reference in a John Hopkins' piece in The Times last month:

"Bernard Darwin, a former golf correspondent of The Times, wrote that the most difficult shots in the sport are the second shots to the short holes at Rye."

Rich, care to take on Bernardo?

Mark

[ForkaB]

Mark

1.  Euan Currie is still alive and well.  Ask him--he's the primary source.

2.  I never said anything about all of Dornoch's short holes.  Just the 2nd.  Read before you speaketh, Master Bourgeois...

3.  To be a bit serious--if Donald Steel is your (or Tony's) "primary" source, that is pretty secondary, at least to me.  My guess is that he snaffled it from Brown or more likely Currie, as he was a fairly frequent visitor to Dornoch.  (I don't think that Eric Brown was ever invited to play in the President's Putter...... )

Hang in there, Buckaroo!

[ForkaB]

Good inferences and references to transmogrification.  You are doing well, Grasshopper....

[Mark Bourgeois]

Rich and Tony,

Donald Steel says he doesn't know the author but the phrase has been said of Rye for as many years as he has been going there.  That would be 50 years...

This would imply that the Dornoch phrase in fact derives from the Rye phrase.

Mark

[ForkaB]

Mark

Have you been in touch with the Donald?  If so, I'll take his and your word fur the noo, even though the 2nd at Dornoch predates any of the par-3's at Rye.....

Thanks

Rich

PS--since Eric Brown's comment was made in 1957, and probably formulated several years earlier, why does the fact that the Donald thinks that he has heard it about Rye for about 50 years "trump" Brown?

Dig deeper, my friend, if you want to convince me!

R

[Mark Bourgeois]

Rich,

Yes I did get in touch with Donald Steel.

My goal is not to reverse the opinion of Rich Goodale, a fool's errand, at least for my lesser intellect!

I play to the court of international golf opinion. If someone can produce the Bernard Darwin primary source, I will rest my case.

Mark

[Andy Levett]

Rich,

Yes I did get in touch with Donald Steel.

My goal is not to reverse the opinion of Rich Goodale, a fool's errand, at least for my lesser intellect!

I play to the court of international golf opinion. If someone can produce the Bernard Darwin primary source, I will rest my case.

Mark

I think its Darwin on Rye too.
 If it's not Dickinson, Steel can't remember, Goodale's trying to claim for a course that even in the 70s Allen thought was designed by MacKenzie, you have to go back to Bernardo. I have very little Darwin but having checked the indexes of Golf Courses 1910 and Golf Between The Wars I can't find it. I may have read it in Green Memories but my copy is an American edition without an index so I can't check.

[Stan Dodd]

Didn't Finegan attibute that to Tom Watson re Dornoch.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Stan, I've come across that reference to Watson dating back I think to 1981; however, Rich's sourcing looks stronger, no?

Andy, please keep checking!

All: Donald Steel has been in touch again.  He says he wouldn't bet on Bernardo being the source and, in checking, notes that he used the Rye phrase in the World Encyclopedia of Golf, published 1975.

Mark

[ForkaB]

Finnegan is wrong.  Watson was there in 1981 (I followed him around) and probably learned it from one of the locals.  Can't believe Peter Allen was so ignorant re Dornoch and MacKenzie.  The good doctor never even visited there; nor did Bernardo.  Ah, the English.......

I'll stick with my solid 2nd-hand oral history reference to Eric Brown c. 1957 until I hear better.

As a final note, I don't remember any of the par-3s at Rye as having anywhere near the peril and terror (second shot-wise)of the 2nd at Dornoch, but I only played two rounds there, and it was a long time ago......

Oh yeah, Mark, next time you talk to Donald ask him to ask his former colleague, Tom MacKenzie.  Tom is a Dornoch boy and might know more thean either of us.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Rich,

Yes I did get in touch with Donald Steel.

Mark

I've said it before but this place is better than being in Annie Hall!

Shell International Encyclopaedia of Golf 1975 ed. Donald Steel.

"It is often said that the most important shots at Rye are the second shots at the short holes."

Honestly, I go away for few days and squabbling breaks out.  Incidentally I believe young MacKenzie opened the door for me on Friday, wearing a Dornoch sweater, at a course far from either of the above. If either of you had had the presence of mind to call me about this we could have settled the matter there and then.

[RSLivingston_III]

After looking at the photos, I like the analogy with RCD without mountains..

[Craig Disher]

Craig,

Please do post more.

Are the grass faces / flat bottoms on the bunkers the original style?

What was MacKenzie's involvement?

It looks very green; were these pics taken in summer and how does the course play at different times of year?

Lastly, can you repost these photos in a separate thread so they don't get buried in this thread?

Thanks,
Mark

Most of the bunkers have shrunk to some extent. I have an old photo of MacKenzie's #8 just after it opened; I'll post it later. The shrinkage was unintentional and just evolved over time.

The pictures were taken in June. The course is usually a browner shade but except for a couple holes that are built on very shallow topsoil the turf is terrific throughout the year. The super would not like these pics; he likes to keep the grass on the edge of death. The course always plays firm although I've heard that in the winter the rains leave it soggy in spots. The greens are always perfect, much like Rye, and I can barely remember seeing a ball mark on them.

MacKenzie gave the club a long list of recommendations in the mid-1920s. The club implemented some very soon (#8 and #17, e.g.), some took 70 years.


I'll try moving the photos to a separate thread; if it disappears from here, you'll know it worked.

[GregRamsay]

I GREATLY enjoyed Rye last year with Golf Course Architect Martin Ebert, and Editor of Golf Architecture Magazine, Adam Lawrence.  

I think that 2 questions posed in this thread are entirely linked- being "Why is the course so revered by so many respected writers (particularly historically), but receives little official recognition today?"

and "just what are those submerged boards that fringe some of the greens, eg 2nd and 7th?"

To my eye, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that the predominantly buried timber boards are actually rail road ties of old bunker faces.  I believe that there are several other great links courses where bunkers have been filled in over the years, but in some instances the tops of the boards continue to show through.

I challenged Martin on this prior to the round, and i'm not sure he was convinced, but as i played the course and imagined these funny litte timber brows, as the faces of steep, deep, claustrophic pot bunkers, i could see just what an intimidating challenge Rye once would have been.  To my eye, almost all of them fringed little depressions, and even followed the contours of the old bunker shapes.

Regardless of long lost hazards, I still greatly enjoyed the course for what it is now, but wish someone would have a serious look at reinstating some of those bunkers.

Martin, Adam and I had a wonderfully tranquil dusk to see both the original, and Martin's very good works on their second course.  After an eye opening morning round at the unheralded Royal Cinque Ports (where i nearly fell over in the carpark when i was introduced as 'Tasmanian' and the Member advised he had greatly enjoyed his round at Barnbougle Dunes!), i couldn't have asked for a better day on England's South East links.

Greg Ramsay
www.rathogolf.com

[Mark Bourgeois]

Greg,

A quick check of the club's history turned up this about the 14th hole. Recall the right side of this par 3 contains sleepers.

Sometime in the 1930s, Sir Guy Campbell was called upon to change the 14th.  According to Frank Arnold, the greenkeeper at the time, Sir Guy "suggested putting in small sleepers to make the players lift the ball from the hollow. We went on and completed the green as it is today."

If true for the other greens with such sleepers, then they are original and not bunker remnants.

Mark

[Neil_Crafter]

Mark
Yes I agree with you, the small sleeper walls are all in locations so as to force a player to play over them with a lofted chip rather than a trundle with a 6 iron or a putter. Guy Campbell was the originator. They have even since introduced the idea at adjacent Littlestone. I have written an article on Rye's eyebrows that will go in this year's issue of Golf Architecture magazine.

Sorry Gregory, a very romantic notion but sadly not true. Wouldn't have done a great job of filling in the old bunkers if they left the tops of the sleepers sticking out! You are surely not suggesting our English brethren are that incompetent?!

cheers Neil