[George Pazin]

I was answering a question on the most recent Oakmont thread when it struck me that 1, 9, 10, and 11 all use the same basic landform, a long and wide hillside.

This seems to contrast quite a bit with many other courses, where each hole tends to be based around one landform - the old PV-esque isolation thing seems to dominate.

Or am I totally misunderstanding other courses? Can someone think of another great course where this is the case?

I guess, in some respects, Pebble would be another course with fewer, larger landforms.

[mike_malone]

 My strongest impression of Bethpage Black was how a few ridges were used to the maximum when quite a bit of the property was rather flat. It seemed to be why the course is so spread out.

[Kalen Braley]

There is a large dune at cypress that has 4 holes butt up to it in one form or another.  Pretty cool.  I think you first see it as the backdrop to the par 3 3rd.

[Bill_McBride]

The 1st, 15th, 16th, 17th and 18th holes at the Valley Club of Montecito, the 1929 MacKenzie/Hunter gem, are all laid out on one broad slope from the clubhouse on the hilltop down toward the ocean.  (It never gets anywhere near the ocean but that's the direction of the slope).  

MacKenzie actually used the broad slope a little more creatively than Mr. Fownes, because the holes aren't parallel as they are at Oakmont, #1 and #15 are parallel but #16, 17 and 18 form a triangle so you play the slope at different angles, down, across and up.  It's a very interesting design on what could have been pretty boring land.

I think if the Oakmont holes weren't so scary with those deep bunkers and fast, fast greens, those holes could be mundane.  As they exist.......

[Bill_McBride]

There is a large dune at cypress that has 4 holes butt up to it in one form or another.  Pretty cool.  I think you first see it as the backdrop to the par 3 3rd.

That is very cool, and is a MacKenzie trademark I think.  He did the same thing at the Valley Club with two hills (tees and greens cut into the hillsides or on top of the hills) and apparently did so at Royal Melbourne.  He did the same thing at the Meadow Club in Northern California too.   It gives each course a very intimate feeling.

[Garland Bayley]

How many acres of land does the 18 at Oakmont occupy? It certainly looks like it is a much smaller amount than many of the great courses. I think you will find that when holes are compacted into a smaller space you will get this feature.

Certainly when you have a large space such as Sand Hills CC where they actually went out and bought some additonal land for the holes that could be built there, you will not see this feature much.

[Kalen Braley]

There is a large dune at cypress that has 4 holes butt up to it in one form or another.  Pretty cool.  I think you first see it as the backdrop to the par 3 3rd.

hat is very cool, and is a MacKenzie trademark I think.  He did the same thing at the Valley Club with two hills (tees and greens cut into the hillsides or on top of the hills) and apparently did so at Royal Melbourne.  He did the same thing at the Meadow Club in Northern California too.   It gives each course a very intimate feeling.

Agreed Bill,

I think the real genius in that is being able to make each hole unique, and keep the flow of the course nice, and use the land to its best potential, and not have any of it feel forced.

I would imagine this takes a lot more thought/insight/vision than one might think.

[corey miller]

The same dunes line is used on eight of the first nine holes at Prairie Dunes.

[TEPaul]

George:

I don't know, that kind of thing is probably just a happenstance and doesn't make much difference.

I think good architects simply figure out the best way to use any landform, even if it's immense.

We should probably consider William Flynn's Indian Creek which he constructed on a dead flat island that itself was totally man-made in Miami Bay. And when he did it he created an immense hill that is at least 35 feet high that accomodates the large clubhouse and parts of a number of holes.

On the other hand, there is some magnificent looking rolling land next to me that I thought would be ideal for golf but when I showed it to Bill Coore he said the contours were probably too big and that golf holes could actually get lost in them or overwhelmed by them.

By the way, The Creek Club on Long Island has a massive hillside that accomodates four or more holes just as it was.

[George Pazin]

The same dunes line is used on eight of the first nine holes at Prairie Dunes.

Very cool, I'm going to have to look at the overhead.

Thanks, Tom P - I'd be curious to see the land you showed, as I find site selection to be one of the more fascinating areas of gca. I'm of the opinion that most people decide how good a site is based on how good the golf course turns out!

[Sean_Tully]

One feature of having a number of holes routed near a land form that is lost to us today is the ease of maintenance. Back in the day the alot of the labor had to walk from one green to the next to get them mowed, or to maintain the bunkers around a green. So, they were able to take advantage of a landform and create some intersting holes that not only help to reduce maintenance costs, but also gives the course an intimate feeling that Bill already mentioned.

Tully

[Stan Dodd]

At CPC the dune is used as a backdrop for 6 green, platform for 7 tee and 7 runs along the dune, 8 tee shot and green use the dune, the 9th runs along the dune, 10 tee is atop the dune and 11 green is backed up to it and the 12 tee is on the edge with tee shot skirting it.  Great use of 1 feature.
so actually 7 holes are impacted.  Interesting topic.

[Bill_McBride]

At CPC the dune is used as a backdrop for 6 green, platform for 7 tee and 7 runs along the dune, 8 tee shot and green use the dune, the 9th runs along the dune, 10 tee is atop the dune and 11 green is backed up to it and the 12 tee is on the edge with tee shot skirting it.  Great use of 1 feature.
so actually 7 holes are impacted.  Interesting topic.

I think that's actually a couple of different dunes, Stan.  I just pulled up Google Earth and went down to Cypress Point, the resolution is terrific.  #8 actually doglegs right around a different dune than the one that has the 10th tee and 9th green.  Check it out, it's a great aerial photo that you can zoom in on.

[Jim Sweeney]

Now the name of the course is not coming to me but Brad Klein's course in Bloomfield, Connecticut makes the most of it's predominant land form, a ridge that runs from high right to low left through the middle of the property. Holes 2-7 play up, along and down one side, while holes 11-16 play predominantly up, along, and down the opposite side.

[Jim Sweeney]

The limestone ledge upon which theb Yale clubhouse sits seems to figure promnently on holes 1,2,3,4(tee),7,8,9(tee) 17, and 18.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

The sand ridge at Seminole plays into 7 holes or so. Cypress Point uses that one feature for 6,7,9,10,11,and 12. Laurel CC in laurel Mississippi uses two ridges to work 14 of the 18 holes.

[Tyler Kearns]

That is very cool, and is a MacKenzie trademark I think.  He did the same thing at the Valley Club with two hills (tees and greens cut into the hillsides or on top of the hills) and apparently did so at Royal Melbourne.  

Bill,

Certainly on the West course at Royal Melbourne, a large hill is a prominent feature on holes 3-6. It creates the right-to-left tilt of the 3rd fairway. The central fairway bunkers on 4 are set into its slope, and the subsequent stroke to the next landing area is more exhilirating from this elevated position. Further, the green on 5, and tee on 6 are located on this same hill.

Although not as dominant a feature, a smaller hill is exploited by Mackenzie/Russell to situate the 7th green (not designed by Mackenzie), 8th tee, 9th green, 10th tee and similar to the fourth, to set the fairway bunkers on 18 into.

TK

[Andy Hughes]

Man, can't believe nobody has mentioned Fazio's 'Super Dune' at Emerald Dunes:

"The best and most unique feature is the "Super Dune," which rises more than fifty-feet high. At its peak, you'll have a panoramic view of the entire course. There are three tees and three greens that are elevated, and a couple of waterfalls were built into the beautiful centerpiece that serves as the hallmark for this outstanding course. The course can be very challenging because water hazards come into play on sixteen holes. Five sets of tees are available, so all skill levels will enjoy playing here. A "Golf Course News" survey in 1992 voted Emerald Dunes as "Best Resort/Public Course" opened in the past five years. "GOLF Magazine" awarded this course 71st under the 1998 category of "Top 100 Courses You Can Play in the U.S."

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