[Forrest Richardson]

Eric — You may well have answered your own queston(s) when you reason that "It seems to me that it's easier to build a 'one-of-a-kind' hole with, for example, a bulldozer or an artificial water hazard, than to produce one from natural terrain. When you have natural terrain you fall into a decision-making process that is exponential compared to the "already-there-for-the-taking" hole that presents itself in nature. So, yes, it is difficult to balance creativity and innovation on a site that offers there-for-the-taking holes.

I am not sure it is easier to "...produce an abominable hole with a bulldozer or a water hazard..." In reality, it is really quite easy when you do not have to rely on those devices.

Creativity is about ideas — the "poetry" of the course. As Saul Bass (the great, now-deceased, graphic designer) once said, "The invention of the typewriter did not necessarily make for better poetry."

Yes, I am suggesting by my question that opportunities may be lost when we focus only on the minimalist approach. To the degree that it may be the only concept, or even the primary concept, of a golf course...that may be its undoing.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

This idea that "minimalism" is the ultimate proof of a superior design is simply silly. Sometimes the desire to be a "less is more" turns out to a "less is less" result.

The other silly notion is that only "preferred architects" have the wherewithal to "get it" and that with each design they hit home runs. That is outright funny -- to say the least dead wrong. It's also unfair to other talented people in the field who are doing some wonderful designs.

Too often the "preferred" get brownie points simply because of PAST work -- not the existing layout in question.

There are quality elements at Saguaro / We-Ko-Pa but they are more often in the minority IMHO and only come to life as I described towards the last third of the round.

What's so amusing is that people come to the Valley of the Sun and play a few layouts and then because one of them is the latest effort from the "preferred" architectural pool it is then deemed to be at the top of the charts -- when a good bit more field research would yield some other solid prospects that often go unnoticed -- Jim Franklin mentioned Eagle Mountain and there are some fun holes there. I mentioned SunRidge Canyon because the land, routing and mixture of the holes is quite good from beginning to end.

Tom D:

Be most interested in your comments on SunRidge but I take the view of Jim F and others -- TSN is frankly golf-lite at best. There are bits and pieces of quality to it but the idea that it is some sort of unique or creative design escapes me. I can say it might be more of a preference thing but from the sheer array of people that I network with in the area and beyond the same result happens -- TSN is not high on the agenda play list.  

Let me further point out that Saguaro is not as strategic as one might hope -- AGAIN save for the final seven holes there. I found most of the early holes to be lacking in any real focus or intent. You simply have wide fairways to nicely produced putting surfaces but nothing that rises REMOTELY to the occasion that the famed tandem did with Bandon Trails.

Tom, for me to understand your comments that Saguaro is a "terrific golf course" I would need to know the depth of other courses you have personally played within the greater region of Phoenix / Scottsdale.

Thanks ...

Eric:

Expanding horizons is always a good thing. My main point is not for people to get stuck on the "star" architect syndrome and then believe that everything produced from such a grouping is the second coming of Christ, Ghandi, etc, etc.

Keith Foster did a superlative job with SunRidge Canyon and few people really take the time to play the course -- I find plenty of the layouts in and around the Fountain Hills area to be worthy of one's time.

Eric, the issue isn't your body odor -- it's your desire to do limited research (for a whole host of valid reasons) but then you decide to question my recommendations simply from what a Website says of SunRidge Canyon. Please -- don't call me or others on the carpet when you don't have the field research to back up your statements. If you want to talk about what "smells" it's when people take shortcuts and then make it a point to tell others who have been "thoroughly clean" that they still smell. Get it.

If you seek courses that only require walking that's your prerogative. However, I don't think it's fair to label such courses with carts as being less so from a golf design perspective provided the use of such vehicles is not so exhaustive as to take away from the time on the course itself.

In regards to the holes you mentioned -- the 1st is simply a straight away long par-4. I didn't find anything there that was an eye-opened from a design perspective.

The 7th is a decent short par-4 but I have seen other efforts from C&C that are clearly a good bit better. The 8th is another ho-hum par-5 -- OK but far from being anything of serious design quality.

Next time you visit the Valley of the Sun I would recommend you play SunRidge and then AFTER you play it you can tell me where I and others are so wrong. Just gleaning info from a Website only shortchanges you from an experience you may find to be as good, if not better, than outlined by me and others here.

[Ryan Farrow]

I just got through playing SunRidge Canyon, Saguaro, Talking Stick North, and Eagle Mountain and thought Talking Stick North was by far the least impressive. I was shocked that so many holes were the same. To a man in my event (24), TSN was a HUGE letdown.

Jim, I was very impressed with the majority of holes at TSN. But I will admit as the round progressed I felt like I have seen it all as far as what the course had to offer. Did you start to loose interest after the first few holes?  I have heard similar complaints from some of my friends who have played there. I guess if we look at it as purely a piece of architecture it was brilliant but it was too big, too many holes for that kind of course. If we did not standardize our courses with 18 holes this could have been a 14-15 hole masterpiece.

[Eric_Terhorst]

I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility that "minimalism" misapplied could ruin a world-class piece of golf property someday.

Forrest R quote "To the degree that it may be the only concept, or even the primary concept, of a golf course...that may be its undoing."

FWIW from a commentator of low credibility, Agreed.  

Tom,
fyi, Andy Troeger has also posted some pics of SunRidge which you can find with the search tool.

Tom and Ryan,
I played Talking Stick for the first time on my visit and though I liked it was surprised that it has attracted so much attention given how "restrained" it is.  #2 jumped up and bit me, as I got my tee ball a little too far left and watched in horror as it kept rolling and rolling left and finally ended up about 3 feet out of bounds.  It nicks you to death like that all over the course, and that can drive some golfers crazy.  The gentleman I played with kept wondering aloud--"how is this course rated 119?"

But #13 suggests to me why you may need multiple plays to really appreciate the course.  From the middle tee it's 356 yards, bunkers right, 211 to carry.  The safer route is left, to the center of the fairway, which I followed with a well-hit drive that took a big satisfying bounce and roll.   I had about 90 yards to hole, which was cut left, near a threatening bunker and on the second tier of a 3-tiered green.  I thought I had a couple of choices to get it close--a hooking runner, or a "dead-arm" wedge, as they say on TV, that doesn't spin.  I don't have enough talent for that latter shot, and the hooking runner I have played, but only when forced to from trouble.  I thought that had a good chance to find the bunker if it was too aggressive.  So I elected to go with the conventional wisdom, a high wedge.  It hit on the second tier and spun back, all the way down to the front of the green, 40-45 feet away.  From there I 3-putted for bogey.  I was muttering "next time..." when I came off that green--and several others.  But on 13 if you choose to go right over the bunkers and miss it right, you might be kicking yourself for making double or worse.  Classic risk-reward hole, but certainly not too loud about it--that was the theme throughout.  I stayed interested throughout, but it's been established that I'm a reputation slut, so I was bound to.  

Matt,

I still don't think my comments on SunRidge were a personal affront to you--in fact I thought I implied in my first post that while I was personally put off by management's (IMO) ill-advised attempts to draw golfers in by highlighting the GPS system and other features that don't appeal to me, if a GCAer said it was OK, that might be enough for me to go out of my way to play it.   In criticizing things I don't like that you do, I am as you said expressing a personal opinion based on whatever information I have at the ready.  That's all--truly, I am not trying to call in to question your expertise on the Valley of the Sun or to suggest that my knowledge was somehow greater.  And kudos, you seem to have brought all the SunRidge fans out of the woodwork!  

[Forrest Richardson]

I once got into a debate over Talking Stick North — not about whether it was good necessarily — but about the "naturalness" of the design.

Tommy N. had it in his mind that it was pure unadulterated desert, made great by disturbing as little as possible.

Little did he know that I used to ride my mini-bike over that land — every weekend for 5-6 years! I had to break the news that Bill and Ben left some things in place, but that it was an extrordinary effort of shaping holes to create what we enjoy there now.

[Matt_Ward]

Eric:

Your SunRidge comments were not completely an affront to me (although partially they were since I recommeneded a layout and you assailed me on it only through the info on a club's Website), but demonstrated your lack of digging for the "real" insights into the property. You did the quick and easy fact checking simply by going to the club's Website and then made a huge miscalculation (you may find the course to be as good as stated by those here on GCA) based on what is said on a Website.

My God -- a Website is nothing more than paid advertising space. I would have hoped you would learn a good deal more by others who have actually played the course. You can always disagree but at least your disagreement will come from a personal connection -- more than just a Website or other 3rd hand accounts.

Having an opinion is one thing -- having an informed one is quite another.

That's all I said.

[Tom Dunne]

Forrest,

You're dead right about Talking Stick in the above post--C&C moved 520,000 cubic yds of earth for that 36 at Talking Stick.

Matt,

On this website I try my best to keep quiet about courses I have never played, something which you advocate. When I say that I enjoyed Saguaro and thought it to be very good, I'm not going to pretend that I offer that opinion as an expert in all of the various forms of desert golf. I've only played a handful of courses in Phoenix/Scottsdale, including WeKoPa and Talking Stick North, and I'll add a few new ones to the list next week. I'm glad that you mentioned Sunridge Canyon, as it's been under my radar and I'm now looking forward to my game there even more.

[Tom_Doak]

I have played Talking Stick North, and I'm blown away by the lack of respect given it in the discussions above.  All I can say is I wish I'd built it.

No, it's neither terribly difficult nor terribly sexy.  (Pursuant to Patrick Mucci's current thread, it's designed for snowbird golfers visiting the area, not for a professional event.)  The property was as flat as a pancake, so criticizing it for "lack of elevation changes" seems pointless to me.  But, for a flat course, I found it quite fun to play, and although not every hole was exciting, there are several of the more unique and original holes that I've seen in Phoenix (those would be 2, 4, 5, 11 and 12).

Does that make it the best course in Phoenix?  Almost certainly not.  But I did find it more INTERESTING to play than many of the longer, harder courses in Phoenix with a bit more elevation change, so I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand.  As I sit here and look out at the snow and think about it, it reminds me of only one other course, a flattish links which seldom generated any respect until last summer -- Hoylake.

[Ryan Farrow]

I thought #2 and #12 were world class holes. To even think about using OB like that on the second holes takes some balls, if I'm not mistaken wasn’t there barbed wire that runs the length of the hole?   And the desert wash was used to perfection on 12, I clearly couldn’t resist driving to the left side of the fairway, the only problem I had with the hole was almost getting stuck in the muddy wash trying to get to my ball. I don't know if these are the types of holes Forrest was talking about when he mentioned one of a kind holes the other day.

My problem with the course is what happened after 12. It was just too much of the same to really keep me excited. 14 and 18 were the only holes that stood out after #12. It was just a bit of a buzz kill at the end which kept me from falling in love with the place. After all that it is still the best course I have played in Phoenix so far.

[Forrest Richardson]

Hole 2 is a favorite of mine. Also, I enjoyed the other Boundary Hole — No. 10, I beleive, that runs left of an old ditch. A ditch, I might add, that I probably ran through in that mini-bike.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Ryan,

#17 is a good par 5.  Challenge the bunkers on the left off the tee, and you get a good look at the green on your second shot.  I played the middle tees, and as I look at the yardage book many of these holes would not have been as interesting for me had I played the back tees.  On 13, for example, without a tailwind I wouldn't try to challenge a 245 yard carry over the bunkers, but 211 is potentially doable.

I might have had the "sameness" reaction if I had played the back tees, as there would have been fewer options to consider off the tee, fewer bunkers to reach, etc..

[Ryan Farrow]

Hole 2 is a favorite of mine. Also, I enjoyed the other Boundary Hole — No. 10, I beleive, that runs left of an old ditch. A ditch, I might add, that I probably ran through in that mini-bike.

Your killing me with this mini-bike thing.


Eric, I would have liked 17 as a three shot par 5. It was just too easy of hole, the drive, the approach; it was just a whole lot of not thinking for me. If you put it in a larger perspective I think all 4 of the par 5's at Talking Stick were reachable in 2. I thought the par 5 on the South course with the wash was much better.

[Ryan Farrow]

Now that I think of it, I should have been playing from the back tees that day. 582 would have been a 3 shotter for me. I clearly remember being a few feet short of the green though.

[Jim Franklin]

Ryan -

Don't get me wrong, there are some good holes at TSN, but there are too many holes that felt the same. We played the back tees and there were 3 pretty good players and me . I think there must have been 5 or 6 holes that seemed like carbon copies, dog leg right with bunker(s) on the inside corner. #2 was probably the best hole, but I liked #18 too since I won a skin there after driving the green . Since we had 30 players, the skin pot was nice .

[George Pazin]

Ever since I played the 3rd 18 at Bandon, Oregon, I've wanted to see every course C&C built.  So far, I've liked three of 'em a great deal, so I will make it a priority to see some more.

Ever since I for the first time played golf while being transported in a motorized cart with a GPS system, on land that seemed perfectly suitable for a golf course that a human with two legs could walk, I never *wanted* to do it again.  I will do it again, but I won't make it a priority to seek out courses where I am forced to do so.  To the extent I have time and money to play golf, I will choose courses that are designed to be enjoyed by walkers.

Ever since I watched my petite and lovely wife carry her own clubs around a man-size golf course, including most recently the 3rd and 4th nines at We-Ko-Pa, one of which I understand from reading your posts is pretty good, and the 18 on the north side of Talking Stick, I don't understand why a full-grown person of either sex would want to play golf while using a motorized cart.  Especially as it often requires traipsing back and forth to the infernal cart paths, which in turn blight the landscape of most of the courses they're found on.

I love these sentiments.

Eric, don't listen to anyone who claims you need to see more architects to broaden your horizons or whatever.

I just wish B&B (seems so much friendlier than C&C ) would build a course in western PA.

[Andy Troeger]

I'll try to update the SunRidge Canyon thread in the next day or two...I think I had another couple of pretty good pictures that might give at least a little more information.

Regarding TSN, I'd have to agree with most of the sentiments already mentioned. I enjoyed the beginning stretch, but kind of lost interest with it being the same thing after awhile. I guess I didn't see much that was anything that unusual. Different from most AZ courses I've seen, but not as good as Warren at ND, also a pretty flat site.

[Matt_Ward]

TSN is a wonderful addition because the manner and nature of what it is as a golf course design is different from others in the greater Valley of the Sun.

However, just because it is different doesn't mean for me at least to be something that I would search out or most certainly run to play again. I would do that for a layout like SunRidge Canyon and others of that type. Chalk it up to personal preferences / tastes, etc, etc.

Unfortunately, too much of this site is devoted to the "name(s)" of the people who design such courses and not the actual product that emerges from their efforts IMHO. As I said previously, no designer hits home runs with each design and that includes the "preferred" types favored by a good many people on this site.

[George Pazin]

TSN is a wonderful addition because the manner and nature of what it is as a golf course design is different from others in the greater Valley of the Sun.

However, just because it is different doesn't mean for me at least to be something that I would search out or most certainly run to play again. I would do that for a layout like SunRidge Canyon and others of that type. Chalk it up to personal preferences / tastes, etc, etc.

Unfortunately, too much of this site is devoted to the "name(s)" of the people who design such courses and not the actual product that emerges from their efforts IMHO. As I said previously, no designer hits home runs with each design and that includes the "preferred" types favored by a good many people on this site.

Nice zen koan there, Matt.

"It's not my kind of course, to each his own - but anyone who likes it is obviously just enamored with the designer."

[Matt_Ward]

George:

You can spin it anyway you like -- if you ever have the opportunity to play the courses in question you can then tell me if I'm all wet.

George, there are people who are architectural "groupies." These folks gush about certain courses ONLY because of the people who design them. I've said this before -- such people are clearly talented but they DON'T hit design home runs with each layout in my book. The Saguaro is not the second coming of Wild Horse or anything close to that.

Give you a clear example that I will be outlining in a separate thread -- the new Ken Kavanaugh design just down the street from Troon North called Vista Verde. First rate course but one that will likely get little fanfare because it doesn't have most favored designer status.

A pity indeed.

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