[Sean_Tully]

Here are the photos



I started a new thread because, Mark asked a interesting question.

Sean,
In that 1926 photo, whose bunkering do you think that is?  Watson, Behr, Whiting (some combination)?
Mark

My short answer is Whiting. (With a lot of reading between the lines)Why? Well as soon as he got there he was making changes to the course. Was it under Watson's supervision\plans I can't say for sure. Intitially Fowler was going to be the architect for the new 36 holes at Olympic. For some reasons, land purchasing, architect availability,(my guesses) or something else led to the switch to Watson. This was not the first time this happens to Fowler and Watson out did him on some other jobs as well.

I have not focused much of my research on Olympic so I have not seen the Watson plan for the course, yet. What I can say for sure, based on my research is that it became the Sam Whiting show. He was very instrumental in the changes to the course over the years and leading up to the opening of the two courses. Watson's name was absent from all of the articles that I have read from about 1924 and on. He was on site every day and was heavily involved in the work. I am still working on digging up info on the Watson/Whiting relationship.


How does Behr get involved with Olympic Club? Again the research that I have been doing shows that the club wanted to get some expert advice on the work Whiting was proposing to do.  Behr was called in as Lakeside in LA was very well recieved among his other qualifications. He felt the work that Whiting was doing was good and it appears that Whiting continued his work. No mention if Behr proposed any changes or additions. We can pretty much assume that he would have lent some amount of advice. The interesting thing that came from this is that the two men went to work together in laying out and building Caphuchino Golf and CC.

What the Behr involvement says for the most part is that Whiting was following the plans left behind and after the damage to the course he was called on to propose alterations to the course. By this point he had been involved in the design of a number of courses one in particular that comes up regularly is Stockton Golf Club. I have an article shows that he was the architect and that Willie Lock was also involved at some point as well, no mention of Mackenzie.

There is a lot to learn about Whiting as a Golf Pro, Greenskeeper, and architect.  

As always there is more to the story and I hope to find more info on the course and the people involved in its early history.

There will be some holes in this as I am working with a very limited amount of info. I will be interested in other peoples take.

Tully

[Mark_Fine]

Sean,
One thing we are confident about is that Whiting (who was the club pro in 1921 at the Watson designed Berkeley CC (now Mira Vista), was responsible for most of the tree plantings at both golf courses.

I can also tell you that the 1924 Watson plan for the Olympic Club Lake course looks much different than what is there now.  The plan called for numerous fairway bunkers and as we all know there is only one now (that one put in by RT Jones)
Mark

[Bill_McBride]

That older bunker has a real Raynoresque look.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Panhandle Bill:
Yes, it does, and that has been my contention with most Watson bunkers. At least they early ones. Mark and I have been discussing this off-line.

[Mark_Fine]

As Tommy said, it definitely does have that Raynor-like look which is one of the reasons I was asking if anyone knows whose bunkers those are (Watson, Whiting, Behr, or someone else)?  I sent Tommy some information I dug up on Watson at The Golf House (an old article penned by Watson for Golfdom Magazine) which seems to claim he advocated a more flowing and natural look.  It's all very interesting and fun to research.  

Sean, hopefully we will all get together down in Anaheim and compare notes!

[Sean_Tully]

I haven't seen too many early photos of a Raynor course so I can't comment on that theory. I can say that Watson would have been influenced by another architect from his period that he worked with and that would have been Tom Bendelow. I have seen very little of his original work as well.  Watson was definately into a more flowing natural look as can be seen in an early aerial of his course at Belvedere in Michigan.  Or this picture from 1934 you can still see the bunkers with that look.

The interesting thing is that Belvedere opened in 1925! So, as we can see from the above photo it looks to be that Whiting was more involved then Watson. I say that knowing some of Whitings background and that Watson was very busy that year and would not have been able to oversee to much of construction at O Club.

Tully

[Matt_Cohn]

what hole is that picture sean?

[Sean_Tully]

The picture of Belvedere can be found on the clubs website. Much kudos to the club for having the history of the club so prominent on their website. There is no mention of the hole number in the photo. My guess based on looking at a lot of photos of golf courses is that it is one of the finishing holes. The people with the cameras did not get very far from the clubhouse! Bastards!! They have a aerial of the club from 1938 if I recall correctly that is very intriquing, it can be found in the clubhouse. This course is on my list of courses to see when I ever get back to play Kingsley and Crystal.

If one of our Michigan GCAers sees this maybe they can help us out.

Tully

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean,
I'm still trying to keep an open mind about what I see there in that Belevie photo. The bunkers have a Bell look to them, even the shaping. But I'm not saying that he was there but the fact is that Bell did work in the midwest, more specifically at Wrigley's Lake Geneva Estate. While this might be miles away from Wisconsin and certainly no evidence of Bell ever being at Belevedere, Watson's bunkering remains consistent on most of the courses I have found images of it.

To quell Tom Doak, I'm not advocating Bell here, I'm only looking for the distinct possibilities that there is something we haven't found similar to what Sean has pointed out about Bell at SFGC, which was for years assumed to be a very obscure Tillinghast bunker style.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

What I have found to date:

I am not saying Bell was at Belvedere, but the similarites are there and they bare no resemblence to what I would call the typical Willie Watson bunker style found at Minikahada, and his California courses.

[Sean_Tully]

Tommy

Interesting stuff.

There are some issues regarding the design/redesign of a course that we are not privy to, like an owner/club that dictates the style of bunkers or greens for there course. I have been thinking about this as this thread goes on and with Mark F.(I'm flip-flopping).

This is a generalization for example...

Architect A has been designing courses for a number of years and has a certain style and meets the customers needs.

Architect B has just started designing courses and has a more natural look to his designs. He quickly makes a name for himself and has a number of jobs lined up.

Architect A sees this and decides to design more natural looking courses or possibly lose work.

Some could say we are seeing this today as well.

Just like with an invention, one person can take it so far and get stuck, and it might take another person to see something the other did not and run with it.

The photos of Annandale raised my eyebrows quite a bit. Not knowing the early history of Belvedere(as to any changes made prior to the pics in 1934)could he get any further away from a design style than he did with Annandale and Belvedere. I will have to see some more photos and plans of his work to get an idea of what he was about. He was incredibly busy in the early 1920's so his work must of been sought after for one reason or another.

Fun stuff.

Tully

[Sean_Tully]

I have some photos of Watson's work at Orinda CC that would have been from the 1924-5 period. I have to look at them again after seeing some other versions of his bunkering that I have seen now. If I get the time I will post.

Tully

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sean,
I was up last night until about 3:00am looking for stuff in the archives for Orinda, let alone Watson. It's amazing just how little stuff there is for someone so important in the scheme of things, but this much I know for sure, Watson came to LA via St. Andrews, not Michigan as early as 1899 as was erroneously preported by many, including me.

As far as golf in Southern California, he may be one of the more intregal figures. (along with John Duncan Dunn.)

[Mark_Fine]

Tommy and Sean,
I have some good stuff on Orinda.  I will bring it out to Anaheim with me.
Mark

[Mike_DeVries]

I haven't seen too many early photos of a Raynor course so I can't comment on that theory. I can say that Watson would have been influenced by another architect from his period that he worked with and that would have been Tom Bendelow. I have seen very little of his original work as well.  Watson was definately into a more flowing natural look as can be seen in an early aerial of his course at Belvedere in Michigan.  Or this picture from 1934 you can still see the bunkers with that look.

The interesting thing is that Belvedere opened in 1925! So, as we can see from the above photo it looks to be that Whiting was more involved then Watson. I say that knowing some of Whitings background and that Watson was very busy that year and would not have been able to oversee to much of construction at O Club.

Tully

Tully,

The photo is taken from near the 1st tee (below the clubhouse), where there is a big drop-off to the left and sits the 4th green (a fantastic perched green with roll-offs, set at the base of the hill, for a long par 3, 190+ yards, often into the wind), which is in the foreground of the picture.  The bunkers you see are between the 4th and 5th hole -- incidentally, they are no longer there, but the formations are still intact.  The original bunkering style is very unusual -- a sinewy shape to the bunkers, with mounds and rolls in and amongst the capes and bays, plus some simpler bunkers and round pots.  It is not necessarily a "natural" bunker style, but has its own flavor and character.  Restored, the bunkers would be very unique and interesting.  Not sure there is much to compare them to.

Hope that helps.

Mike

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