[wsmorrison]

"As for #1 and #8 , I think they have very straightforward strategies associated with their play--stay out of trouble with the drive and hit a wedge to the middle of the green. That's nice but not great. I also believe there is a visual aspect to greatness. #5  #16 are two holes that grab you on the tee and challenge you throughout with many possible shots."

Mike,

You do need to see the course more.  If you think 1 and 8 are straightforward drive and pitch holes, you not only need to see the course more, you need to see it with someone who understands golf architecture.  Since nobody else is willing, I'll volunteer for the job as long as I get hazard pay for trying to teach you something your thick head is unlikely to absorb.  But on the slight chance that something will sink in and your ignorance reduced a bit, I will give it the old college try  

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,

  That should work. I'm hard headed but not closed minded

[Eric Pevoto]

Wayne,

Any Waits cd to TEPaul has to include Frank's Wild Years off Swordfishtrombones:  "...he had a little chihuahua named Carlos, had some kind of skin disease, was totally blind..."  Reminds me of the lost Cooreshaw.

[Shane Gurnett]

Mark, would you put St Andrews Beach in this category?

[Mark_F]

Mark, would you put St Andrews Beach in this category?

Why Shane, I'm flattered that you consider St Andrews Beach to be a great course.

I was thinking more of Kingston Heath actually, but I don't want to upset Rich Macafee again.

[Mark_F]

Only 4 great holes at Dornoch and Portrush combined?  Result of a severely jaded palette?

Paul,

My jaded palette comes from playing St Andrews Beach regularly.

I guess what constitutes a world class hole is open to various opinion,and the nuances between great and merely very good to be a matter of nitpicking one cannot fully elaborate upon, but Portrush to me has the two absolutely great holes, and a number of very good ones.

Same with Dornoch.  Whilst I really like the holes Wayne mentioned - and I like the 1st, 2nd and 15th much more - are the 8th or 11th really two of the best holes in the world?

Royal Melbourne West has the most number of world class holes of any course that I have played - apart from St Andrews Beach - but those holes at Dornoch don't hold a candle to any of RMs, even thought they are vastly different properties and it is hard to make accurate comparisons.

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

Do you have some problem with BaBa Streisand, other than the fact she's a flaming liberal like me?

Shame on you man. She's got the purest set of vocal tubes the world has ever known. She's totally incapable of ever missing a note and she never has, not to mention her power is beyond comprehension.

Don't get me wrong I'm willing to call a spade a spade in the realm of world famous singers. That world famous opera singer Frederica Von Stade (we used to call her Flicka) who was a pretty good friend of my own mother-----I would agree with my mother when she said about her;

"She has a nice voice, it's just very little."  

Wayne, I'm gonna pack a CD for one of our road trips of my own step-daughter and just slip it in there. You won't believe it. She has this teeny little speaking voice but when she cuts loose it makes grown men cry who have never even seen her before.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

Babwa is a lot more flaming than you...liberal that is.  She does have a nice set of lungs, but I'm not too crazy about the songs she sings.  If that CD you make of BS songs includes a Yentl medley, The Way We Were or Feelings, I'm chucking it out the window.

As for your step-daughter, I would love to hear her sing sometime.  Why don't we have a little concert with her and Mark Rowlinson next time he's in town?  Do they do duets?

Eric P and a lot of others on here know how good Tom Waits is...I'll make you a CD of some of his great songs.  You may not like his voice, there is no middle ground on that, but his song writing skills are amazing.  

[Ian Andrew]

Mark,

I'm with you for Portrush, although how many courses don't have a miss or near miss among the 18 holes like Portrush, and that's why its held so high. People can point to the end of County Down with question marks or bring up the blindness aspect. Nobody questions any part of Portrush, it's only fault is the lack of spectacular holes, not a lack of great ones.

[Philippe Binette]

It depends on how you define great holes.

To most people, grat holes have something of a spectacular element on it. In other words, they play good AND they photograph well. They are recognizable.

Example, a lot of people say the 18th at Pebble Beach is great hole and it is, but if it was a hole with a diagonal carry over some long rough and no ocean on the left, people would say it's a good hole but it probably would make the top 100 holes in the world.

Somebody mentioned Pinehurst #2, it's great example. It's not a spectacular setting but it doesn't mean that they are not great holes even if they don't photographed well.

Same with Muirfield, a lot of great holes, no weaknesses in my opinion, but out of the blue most people won't Muirfield as possessing some of the best holes in the world.

I explain something to my friend about St Andrews and North Berwick. My perception was that the holes one by one are great at North Berwick, there are some more spectacular shots etc... but the game is better at St Andrews, how you have to think for 18 holes, how much detail needs to be understood, how the course flows from one hole to the other... it's really a course, a track  

[Mark_F]

Ian,

Thanks for that perfectly succinct and concise explanation.

That was exactly what I was attempting to get at.

[Shane Gurnett]

Mark,

I think St AB is easily the best course on the Mornington Peninsula and therefore it probably qualifies as a great Australian course (Doak 8 or 9 for me). An excellent even bunch of holes rather than a selection of standouts and weaker holes.

[ed_getka]

Mark,
   That is a pretty bold statement that no holes at Dornoch can hold a candle to any at RM. Dornoch is one of my favorite courses in the world. All 18 at RM are better than Fox y? It looks like we'll be having some interesting conversations when David and I come down.

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