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Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Would Your Opinion Change as an Owner?
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2007, 09:43:14 AM »
Bruce,

Sounds like you have your own 2.5 shot par four to open, which I am sure helps play.  I still think (not seeing either course) that a short four stalls play, because every duffed tee shot still allows a shot at the green, so more people wait, rather than progress down the fw.  That may be one of those "common knowledge" things that is hard to quantify.

As for your second,  the details of design might come into play there for  "practicality/profitability.  If you created a reverse replica of Carnoustie No. 6, with its narrow fw in the main landing area and then made the green such that it would only hold a shot from near OB, it might slow up play.

A practical architect/owner might be inclined to soften the details of that hole for commercial purposes, whereas another gca might very well go ahead with the Carnoustie copy.  Those are the kinds of decisions that are typical in fleshing out the design of the course.  Only a select few projects get designed in a total vaccuum.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Doug Ralston

Re:Would Your Opinion Change as an Owner?
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2007, 10:16:46 AM »
Jeff;

My $.02 worth comes from the perspective of a low end to moderate public course player.

It is correct to think that most low-enders really just want to 'get out and play'. By that I mean, few of them spend a lot of concern about 'shot values' and other more serious golf issues. They wish to have a smooth moving and 'enjoyable' round.

But do not mistake 'enjoyable' for trivial. I state categorically, that most will gladly spend a bit more for a BEAUTIFUL [nature-wise] course, even if they have less interest in a difficult golf challenge. Most of us love golf because [competitive as we Americans are] we get out into lovely nature and interact in a more pristine environment that our daily 'cubical'.

All that said in order to say, if you must sacrifice golf on a low end public, you can do it only as long as it is still an environment to savor.

I realize private courses have more options and more expectations, so I cannot speak to that.

Doug

Bruce Katona

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Re:Would Your Opinion Change as an Owner?
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2007, 10:20:01 AM »
Jeff: actually the 2.5 shot hole would slow up play if we ran 8 or 9 minute tee times.....we use 10 minute separations to minimize the back-up.

The short par 4 opening hole at Twisted isfollowed by a longer par 4 allows for sepatation as well give  the 10 minute tee time interval used there.

If we were trying to max out revenue we would run closer tee times (8-9 minutes), but that would impact the experience of the customer and really beat up the couse; both of which defeat the purpose of capturing and keeping a customer.

We all know it is much easier and economical to keep a customer than it is to capture a new one.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re:Would Your Opinion Change as an Owner?
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2007, 03:02:11 PM »
Starting with a par 3 hole would be a commercial disaster in many cases. The time it takes to play a short hole is (average) 12 minutes, so your slots per hour are only 5, over 8 minutes its 7.5. IN $$$ thats loads.
You could have a call thru rule but...
On a members course or a limited play course, there could be some merit in spacing out the play.
Largely the routing should dictate the play, if you can keep your short hole beyond the 3rd its probably better, but often you have to make the call that if you want two returning nines and the best land use some sacrifice with perfect sequencing is going to happen although I suspect most would be against a short hole starter in a golf business operation.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would Your Opinion Change as an Owner?
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2007, 03:50:22 PM »
Bruce,

Somewhere I have a study showing that anything less than 10 minute tee time intervals really doesn't increase play, and owners are just fooling themselves, angering golfers, etc. I think you have it right at ten minutes.  It also shows that each course has a different "par" regarding playing time, based as much on hazards and signifigantly, distance between holes as anything else.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jason Topp

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Re:Would Your Opinion Change as an Owner?
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2007, 04:16:55 PM »
I appreciate some real world business perspective on these issues, of which I have none.  

However, the factors discussed in this thread, appear to have little to do with a good design vs. a bad design.  

- Does it cost more to build and maintain Rustic Canyon than it does to build and maintain a similar course that is your basic 60's era freeway muni?  
- Does such a design slow down pace of play?  If yes, does pace of play significantly impact revenue?
 
- Does such a design drive away potential customers because they do not like being confronted with unique hazards? (a pretty good test of that issue are the greens at the Wilderness at Fortune Bay - I've heard people complain about them but have heard universal praise about the course.  Many people travel to play there despite little else in the area for a travelling golfer).

I think the answer to all of those questions is no, but others would have actual facts.    

Doug Ralston

Re:Would Your Opinion Change as an Owner?
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2007, 05:47:05 PM »
Jason;

What I said to J B applies in spades with 'Wilderness'. Your average low to medium public golfer is far more interested in enjoying a beautiful course than a challenging one. It represents an escape frome a 'sterile' work environment, mostly. Looking at the pix, it is clear to me Fortune Bay will have no probs attracting 'CCFAD' lovers like myself.

Location, location, location!

Doug

PS; I agree that too close tee times is very likely to hurt your 'regulars' listing. Ten minutes sounds pretty good, especially if a course does not want to pay people to 'push'.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would Your Opinion Change as an Owner?
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2007, 05:52:41 PM »
Its usually not black and white, but a matter of degrees in the real world.  Granted, this is a hard topic to get your arms around.  People either bring up Bandon, or TOC, or whatever to show how the rules can successfully be broken.

True enough, but for every one of those, there are a hundred courses where the design didn't pay attention to the basic tenants, but where the gca or owner thought the details would make the difference, and they didn't.

If I sound too analytical, its because its hard to desribe some of the intuitive nature of design thoughts.  And yet, I try. As Tom Doak said on another thread, I bet you could ask Bill Coore the reason for every bunker he adds, and he would know. I could do the same, but I am a plain talker, and would do so without the romance some gca's have been known to use.

Jeff, I'm not trying to be a pain here, but I've read these paragraphs numerous times and I'm still at a loss to understand your point. Are you trying to say other concerns trump architectural concerns?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Would Your Opinion Change as an Owner?
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2007, 07:06:54 PM »
George, thats a definite maybe...... ::)  and the point of the topic.

The low 10% are golf factories and the top 10% are in the elite, but bell curve theory puts most courses right in the middle of the pack, where the concerns of maintenance, design, and aesthetics must be reconciled with nearly equal emphasis if the course is to survive as a business.

In design school, we used to lament that we never got a chance to do "pure design."  In the real world, there is no such thing. As a few have pointed out, there is a design program and if the course is a golf factory, or on a low budget, it does affect the kinds of features you put in.  You have to look for things that work while not costing the owner more to build, and more importantly, more every year down the line.

Frankly, some of the romantic ideas about what makes the perfect course - touched on in the original post - probably only work if there are a perfect storm of other factors out there - perfect site, strong market, etc. etc. etc.

For example, a course with non returning nines costs the owner money, as does one where the driving range is remote and inaccessible, or too small, etc.  Ditto some of the features listed in the original post, like wild green contours. Assuming (and its always true) that a minimum area of cuppable space is required, most golf course owners build the smallest greens possible (with variations, of course) to get a functional surface, rather than building them a few thousand sq ft bigger to accomodate the contours that a gca might think are great.  30,000 extra sq ft of green is over $100,000 to build, and perhaps $10,000 extra a year to mow, etc.

My question to the golf design buffs out there was whether you think, based on what you know about yourself, that if it were your own money, would you have the same tendency to look at, say a plethora of bunkers (and golfers within them) and mentally do the math that the ten minutes that guy took to get out just cost you 4 rounds at $60, or whatever plus the cost of raking.  I figured some would, although its hard to say what we would do when push comes to shove.

As some have pointed out, courses like Rustic Canyon do this quite well, other than being on a site prone to flooding, which has really cost the Owner money, but in SoCal, thats probably the only land available free or low cost.  On the other end of the LA valley, waterfalls were expensive, but perhaps quite necessary to give that market exactly what they wanted. They would be a total waste most places.

As pointed out, I think pretty wild green contours have their place - when the Wilderness asks golfers to drive past a hundred other courses to get to there , they better give them something to talk about.  I haven't heard too many complaints about the greens, other than the Biarritz, but I think thats growing on them, and its frankly to get them talking, although the strategy on the short par 4 works well, I think.

I know you guys prefer to dream about "pure design" but I thought I would bring up the topic of the compromises that are typically made.

Its another way to ask course owners in the 30's, 60's and now are really bad guys for eliminating bunkers, softening bunker edges and green slopes, etc.  And whether the majority of designs of all ages do what they were supposed to - meet the owners needs.

Lastly, it illustrates that design concerns are about things you guys never think about - cart path paving material, bunker sand that withstands wind blowing, golfer circulation around the clubhouse, and so on.  

Just a thought.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Would Your Opinion Change as an Owner?
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2007, 01:36:15 PM »
Jeff,

I"ve been AWOL for the last few days and posted my "handcuff" thread prior to seeing this one.

Interesting, how they're inversely related.

To answer your question, I believe that I'd be a great GENERAL partner  ;D

I think part of the dilema is the use of the golf course.
Is it to be a convenience for hotel guests.
The residents of a golfing community.
A for profit public access course
A municiple course
A private course

Many designs are use driven.

Things I might do at a private course wouldn't necessarily be things I'd do for a resort, residential or public course, and I don't think you can dismiss the "intended use" factor.
It's unrealistic to do so.

Unless you've got an unusual market condition, I believe that you have to design an exceptional golf course.
Long after the infatuation of the newness wears off, the enduring merits of the architecture need to prevail, and as such, I'd strive to produce a unique, challenging yet fun golf course.

I often use the term "sporty".

However, if money is on the line, and it almost always is, I think you have to be influenced by what Roger Hansen brought up, the need for a "championship" golf course.

For better or worse, the golfing public likes that label, they like being identified with a "championship" golf course.
So, if you're going to attract members, you can't ignore that factor.

Sebonack, from the back tees fits that mold.
Friar's Head has already lengthened some holes.
Hidden Creek is considering lengthening some holes.

Hence, I think you need to adopt the "Masters" concept.

A clear set of tees for the members, and a seperate set of tess that are deemed, "championship"

I also think that in today's world, you need recognition from the media and golf world.  Hosting events helps get that recognition.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would Your Opinion Change as an Owner?
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2007, 02:14:59 PM »
Its another way to ask course owners in the 30's, 60's and now are really bad guys for eliminating bunkers, softening bunker edges and green slopes, etc.  And whether the majority of designs of all ages do what they were supposed to - meet the owners needs.

Lastly, it illustrates that design concerns are about things you guys never think about - cart path paving material, bunker sand that withstands wind blowing, golfer circulation around the clubhouse, and so on.  

Just a thought.

I certainly can't comment on the last part, other than to say I don't know anything about that sort of thing and I always appreciate it when you and others share such info.

As for the earlier part, I guess the question I have is how often are the decisions made by the owner, for practical $$$ reasons, as opposed to other motives. Green softening usually seems to be accompanied by green speed accelerating, which (as an admittedly ignorant outside observer) I'd guess is much more costly maintenance-wise (I'm assuming putting in newer grasses to accomodate more frequent and lower mowing is more costly).

Like-wise for many or most other changes.

Thanks for the thoughts. I'd guess most courses succeed or fail completely independent of their architecture. I know with my little business, the easiest thing to do is print the shirts - the success of the business depends on a lot of other factors. I'd guess the golf biz probably isn't much different in that regard.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

SB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would Your Opinion Change as an Owner?
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2007, 12:09:08 PM »
Bruce has it right that there is a great difference between private clubs (particularly high end clubs) and daily fee or semi-private courses.  In general, I boil it down to this:  success at a private club is generally related to your ability to manage revenue, which is membership sales.  Daily fee course success is related to the ability to manage expenses.  Resort courses are somewhat of a mix but more like private clubs.

The economics of a valuing a golf course say that the value is roughly 10 times the profitability.  So, if you have architectural features that either increase expenses or decrease revenue, multiply the cost by 10.  So, if you have a bunker design that   increases costs by $100,000 per year, this would reduce the value of your club by $1 million dollars, all other things being equal.  You can see how this is significant if you only spend $5M to begin with.  So, you can see how you have to "get it back" by creating value.  Obviously, the best design is one that is cheap to maintain yet provides a great design, and they do exist frequently.  

Private clubs are different in that it can be (but not always) easier to absorb those extra costs.  If you have 400 members, an extra $100k per year is only $250 a year or $20 a month per member, which is easy to sell if you have a much better looking product.  That's why private clubs can spend more.  

It's also worth noting that inefficient features are found maybe more often in clubhouses, also reducing value.

Don_Mahaffey

Re:Would Your Opinion Change as an Owner?
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2007, 08:42:05 PM »
I believe the 10x multiple has given way to about a 5-6X profit (or less depending on deferred maintenance) to get market value. It may be different in the East, but I'm not seeing courses selling for 10X profit anymore.

Bruce Katona

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Re:Would Your Opinion Change as an Owner?
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2007, 09:35:42 AM »
In the current market, we see the value of an existing facility (assuming they are turning an operating profit and factoring out facility location positives and negatives) currently trading at 6-8 x Net Operating Income (NOI).  8X NOI is the top the the current range with 6-7 the average.  Very difficult to make the numbers work at 8X....equity (not debt) needs to stay in the deal for a longer period as most projects just can't support that level of annual debt service.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re:Would Your Opinion Change as an Owner?
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2007, 11:21:45 AM »
In the current market, we see the value of an existing facility (assuming they are turning an operating profit and factoring out facility location positives and negatives) currently trading at 6-8 x Net Operating Income (NOI).  8X NOI is the top the the current range with 6-7 the average.  Very difficult to make the numbers work at 8X....equity (not debt) needs to stay in the deal for a longer period as most projects just can't support that level of annual debt service.
Its a bit higher than this in the UK, 4 years ago we got one sold on a PE of 13. With interest rates still low, a good facility that can show £300,000 profit consistently would very easily attract a buyer at 10x, maybe even 12x. Remember 12x is still an 8.3% yield.
When they value UK courses the valuation figure takes other things into account, potential being one of them and turnover is another consideration, is this the same stateside?
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Bruce Katona

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Re:Would Your Opinion Change as an Owner?
« Reply #40 on: January 08, 2007, 01:14:05 PM »
Yes, you try to elavuate potential (blue sky") here as well, but on your side of the ledger not the sellers...too many golf deals of the 1990's imploded because the upside potential could not be achieved.  

In our investment properties, we strive for a capitalization rate of 10%, which is a 10X....if you work on a margin thinner than this, one little economic blip and your numbers are shot.

SB

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Re:Would Your Opinion Change as an Owner?
« Reply #41 on: January 08, 2007, 03:07:00 PM »
Buyers wanting to buy at 6x and sellers wanting 12x is why few deals are getting done.  The deals that I've seen all seem to be pushing 10x, depending on what you call income.