Where would golf or GCA be today if C.B had gotten his way?

[TEPaul]

Most of us think of C.B. Macdonald as the "Father" of American golf architecture but there is little question he was a whole lot more than that to American golf or could've been. Macdonald was definitely in a position to have huge influence in most all things golf in the US, and very likely far more than anyone else in this country. Basically he was in a position fairly early on as the "go to" guy in just about everything to do with golf over here;

1/ American golf administration (membership, representation, Rules decisions)
2/ The playing Rules
3/ The I&B Rules (I&B standardization--distance)
4/ Architectural influence
5/ Agronomy and maintenance
6/ The "spirit" of the game etc.
7/ Amateurism-professionalism

Do you have any idea where he stood on those issues?

If you really do know where he stood on those various issues  what do you suppose would be different today if C.B. really got his way?

Did he want to get his way in those areas? I don't think there was any question about it.

What do you think happened in those areas that prevented him from getting his way and logically assuming the position in early American golf it seems he could've had. Why the man was never the President of the USGA is probably the first place to look.

We mostly glorify him for his part in early American architecture but if we look at these other areas a lot more carefully it tells a lot not just about him but those there with him then.

I've got a lot of little vignettes about him on some of those areas that just might amaze you.

Would golf be better off today if C.B had REALLY gotten his way??

[TEPaul]

It has always amazed me just how much of a "conservative" aura there is in golf and golfers---in a sense that conservatism is almost the "ethos" of golf.

C.B. Macdonald just might have been the greatest ultra conservative American golf has ever known.

[Bill_McBride]

If you are interested in the history of golf in America, it's very important to read "Scotland's Gift, Golf" by CBM.  It's fascinating, tales of golf with Old and Young Tom Morris on the Old Course.  (When it was the only course, did they call it "The Old Course?" Probably not)

In my scant attention to the incredibly rambling and wrangling thread(s) on Merion and CBM's possible influence, I kept thinking, "Of course he had to be influential there, he influenced EVERYTHING about American golf until 1930 or thereabouts."

And you are correct that he was involved and influential about every detail of American golf, from design to competition to rules to administration and the USGA as a founding member.

CBM, I think, thought golf was a game for the patrician class so there would always be a highest level of club golf, but I don't think this could have kept golf from being adopted by the "masses."

[TEPaul]

Bill:

I've probably read Macdonald's book or parts of it twenty times.

And no Macdonald definitely did NOT influence all things to do with American golf until 1930 or thereabouts.

He dropped out of almost all things to do with golf and architecture long before that and seemingly all on his own initiative. He even dropped out of playing golf---eg his famous "renunciation".

You can see the hand-writing on the wall way, way, way back, as early as 1901 when you can almost feel his horror when incoming USGA President in his first speech as president said: "Nothing stays long in America without being "Americanized". I should like to see an "American" game of golf."

To Macdonald that practically spelled the deathknell of the possibility that he could personally bring to America and imbue in Americans what he called "The St Andrews Spirit of golf". I'm not sure that many really understand what that was and meant to him.

And then I was reading the minutes of a Green Committee meeting of The Creek Club at the Links Club in New York City on October 26, 1926. In the words alone you can just about feel the room rock. He and Herbert Dean must have come close to blows. Macdonald resigned at that point from the club whose corporation he was actually the president of. I guess it's kind of understandable that after that he never mentioned The Creek in his book despite all that he had had to do with the place.

[BCrosby]

You can see the hand-writing on the wall way, way, way back, as early as 1901 when you can almost feel his horror when incoming USGA President in his first speech as president said: "Nothing stays long in America without being "Americanized". I should like to see an "American" game of golf."

Very interesting.

What did he mean by "Americanized" golf? As opposed to what kind of golf? And who was the USGA prez he is quoting?

Bob

[Bill_McBride]

Bill:

I've probably read Macdonald's book or parts of it twenty times.

And no Macdonald definitely did NOT influence all things to do with American golf until 1930 or thereabouts.

He dropped out of almost all things to do with golf and architecture long before that and seemingly all on his own initiative. He even dropped out of playing golf---eg his famous "renunciation".

You can see the hand-writing on the wall way, way, way back, as early as 1901 when you can almost feel his horror when incoming USGA President in his first speech as president said: "Nothing stays long in America without being "Americanized". I should like to see an "American" game of golf."

To Macdonald that practically spelled the deathknell of the possibility that he could personally bring to America and imbue in Americans what he called "The St Andrews Spirit of golf". I'm not sure that many really understand what that was and meant to him.

And then I was reading the minutes of a Green Committee meeting of The Creek Club at the Links Club in New York City on October 26, 1926. In the words alone you can just about feel the room rock. He and Herbert Dean must have come close to blows. Macdonald resigned at that point from the club whose corporation he was actually the president of. I guess it's kind of understandable that after that he never mentioned The Creek in his book despite all that he had had to do with the place.

He may not have directly influenced all things in American golf, but his creation of NGLA certainly influenced architecture.

And if you are talking about him almost resigning in 1926, then my off-handed observation of 1930 isn't far off.

I don't know why you are not giving him enough credit, but I don't think his influence ended in 1901!  NGLA wasn't finished - sort of - until 10 years later.  And he was still serving on USGA committees until 1926?  And he was able to bring together investor/members to build a variety of clubs until the late '20s?  I'm a bit confused about the difference between 1901 and 1926-1930.

[TEPaul]

"He may not have directly influenced all things in American golf, but his creation of NGLA certainly influenced architecture."

Bill:

There is no question of that at all--none. I'm beginning to really believe that Macdonald's creation of NGLA was perhaps as influential not just for the golf course itself but for the way he went about it, not to mention the fact he was a dyed in the wool AMATEUR.

"And if you are talking about him almost resigning in 1926, then my off-handed observation of 1930 isn't far off."

The resigning I spoke about there was just from The Creek Club, a club he was a founding member of as well as the president of the corporation that controlled The Creek Club.

"I don't know why you are not giving him enough credit, but I don't think his influence ended in 1901!  NGLA wasn't finished - sort of - until 10 years later.  And he was still serving on USGA committees until 1926?  And he was able to bring together investor/members to build a variety of clubs until the late '20s?  I'm a bit confused about the difference between 1901 and 1926-1930."

Now wait a minute---where am I not giving him enough credit? I most certainly never said his influence ENDED in 1901---I simply said that appears to be the first time he could see that he may not be able to get his way in how he envisioned golf being in this country. Read that part of his book yourself.

Frankly, he was still working on NGLA into the late 1930s. I don't think he ever really stopped perhaps until he was basically demoted at NGLA in the very end. At least that's the way I've heard it from those generational people who have been around Southampton as long as he was.

I don't really see that Macdonald actively brought together innvestors or members of any golf club he was involved with. It seems to me in just about every case they actively recruited him and sometimes that wasn't so easy to do as with The Lido. All this only proves to me just what an influential man he really was in golf. I simply feel it was more than possible that given various and different circumstances, mostly due to him, he could've easily been far more powerful and influential in American golf than he actually was.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom, I haven't studied "Golf's Gift" to the extent you have, but it seems to me I recall his gathering investors for the Creek - but maybe that's just his spin on the actual situation.

And good night, I am no David Moriarity!  I can't type -- or think -- as fast as either of you.

 

[TEPaul]

"And good night. I am no David Moriarty!"

Good night to you too, Bill. And you can thank your lucky stars every day you aren't a David Moriarty.  

[RSLivingston_III]

You can see the hand-writing on the wall way, way, way back, as early as 1901 when you can almost feel his horror when incoming USGA President in his first speech as president said: "Nothing stays long in America without being "Americanized". I should like to see an "American" game of golf."

Very interesting.

What did he mean by "Americanized" golf? As opposed to what kind of golf? And who was the USGA prez he is quoting?

Bob

From 1911 - This might help to explain it.

[AndrewB]

Frankly, he was still working on NGLA into the late 1930s. I don't think he ever really stopped perhaps until he was basically demoted at NGLA in the very end. At least that's the way I've heard it from those generational people who have been around Southampton as long as he was.

Demoted him?  Wasn't NGLA his course?

I'm also particularly interested to hear where he stood on the last issue you cited "Amateurism-professionalism", if you or anyone else know.

[Bill_McBride]

"And good night. I am no David Moriarty!"

Good night to you too, Bill. And you can thank your lucky stars every day you aren't a David Moriarty.  

Tom,

I'm sorry to see that you have misinterpreted my remark that "I'm no David Moriarity."  What I meant is I'm not into tilting windmills, and I can't type - or think - fast enough (as I said) to keep up with you guys!

How could I disrespect a guy who IS into windmill-tiliting to the extent that he was my opponent in a four-ball at Cypress Point, playing with his persimmon woods and hickory irons?    I can't think of anybody else who would choose to spend a day in Nirvana with his hickories, except probably Ran!

Of course it didn't hurt that his partner on the winning side was the redoubtable "Tiger" Bernhardt, fresh from his winning staredown with the Big C, and playing magnificently in his first round at Cypress Point since that ordeal.  Tiger kept knocking fairway woods onto the faraway greens in regulation - #11, #14, #16.  We were left in the dust.  But David was terrific with the antique clubs and kept it in play all day.

Thanks for reminding me of that match!

[TEPaul]

Andrew:

No, NGLA was not Macdonald's course in the sense of Macdonald owning it. Toward the end of his life apparently Macdonald was in a sense sort of pushed out of NGLA or pushed out of controlling it.

I have no idea what that entailed but it sounds like he lost the kind of control of the club or course he once had. I do not know the reason for that or even how accurate it is. But I can tell who told me that---it was those fellows in Southampton who have been there all their lives and their families too for generations who all worked at NGLA. One is the grandson of Macdonald's long time greenkeeper Tureski. He is the one who inherited all the NGLA material that George Bahto now has that is probably most of the basis material of the book. Both of them said that in the end Macdonald was pushed out in a sense--they even mentioned the name of the man who basically took control which I do not recall at the moment. They mentioned that as soon as Macdonald died the club fired his greenkeeper, Tureski, and gave him all that NGLA material on the way out. That is how his grandson who I was speaking with came to eventually inherit it all.

As for Macdonald's feelings about amateurism/professionalism, particularly amateurism with architects. I will get into later. He mentions it in his book "Scotland's Gift Golf" that was published in 1928.

Macdonald resigned from The Creek Club in Dec 1926 (following what appears to have been a really contentious meeting) claiming he wanted to retire to a cottage in Bermuda mainly for the purpose of writing his book.

[Michael Dugger]

Tom Paul,

Of course, I don't know diddly squat about NGLA, I've never set foot in the state of N.Y. for that matter.

But from the outside looking in, from everything I've read and heard, old Charlie was an abrasive fella, correct?

Inferring he probably drove them up a wall.